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It's not a term I like, particularly...I guess I see it as too broad to really be helpful (I mean, Ornette sounds nothing like Evan Parker who sounds nothing like later Coltrane...but anyway...
I wanted to start a thread to talk about all the different aspects of playing "free," as folks lump it together.
Right now, I'm really into just sitting down with a guitar and playing. I'll put my hands on the neck somewhere and start making connections, chase melodies, work with visual patterns, attempt to supply harmony "on the fly." It's not always successful, but it's a very satisfying way to play for me...it shows me a lot about where I am and what I know and what I need to work on.
So anyone else here playing music folks might call "free?' Tell us about it.
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06-16-2015 01:43 PM
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What you describe as the kind of free jazz that you're doing . . if done alone . . I would call noodling, not free jazz. If you do what you're describing within the same tune (term used loosly) and with other band mates, then I'd call it a cluster f***.
Jazz without structure isn't jazz . . . in the way I think of jazz.
So I too am hoping for a definition of free jazz that I can better understand and relate to.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Getting others to play without any preconceived structure is very difficult, so I've played improvisations using a loop pedal at my local Jazz Guitar Club quite a few times. I'm not sure if anyone really likes it, but, it is, what it is.
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'Free jazz' isn't 'jazz without structure.' It is jazz in which the players improvise a structure. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Two different musical lines interact to create harmonies. That happens whether we intend it or not. That happens whether or not we perceive those harmonies in the same way that our colleagues, or our audience, perceive them -- there may be multiple structures, but there are structures. If we are listening we will make something musical of it. That is true whether we are talking about Bach Inventions or Prime Time.
Next . . .
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Improvised music. Originally Posted by Patrick2
European Free Improvisation homeEuropean free improvisation.
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The last time I was at a session where we ended up playing free jazz, it started cool. Lots of listening. After a huge climax, the energy came down and I specifically heard a very diatonic, simple and spacious chordal thing that I went for.
The bass player quickly came in squashed it.
After we played for about an hour, we stopped and talked. The bass player was actually offended by the fact that I played something diatonic. Like that didn't belong.
It reminded me of the goth/punk kids when I was in high school. They were so frustrated with the status quo and what everyone else was doing and how everyone else dressed the same. And I can respect that frustration. And I can respect their desire to want to do something different and set themselves apart to emphasize the importance of individuality. But then there was this severe sense of laziness or lack of creativity to do that...so instead they just all ended up dressing the exact same way as each other. They looked different from everyone else, but the end result was a new homogenous group where a new status quo became the norm that they all seemed to either not recognize, or deem acceptable...which goes against the very premise of why that style came to exist in the first place.
Having the word 'free' in the title is very deceptive. It can fool us into thinking that there's something innately free about it simply because the word is right there in the title. But I often times feel more limited when I play 'free'. I often feel like people who want to play free are placing more rules on me then they realize.
To me free means that the music should be allowed to go anywhere. ANYWHERE
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[QUOTE=Sam Sherry;541531]'Free jazz' isn't 'jazz without structure.' It is jazz in which the players improvise a structure.
If two different lines somehow interacted unintentionally, I'd call that either a coincidence or an accident. But, I'd not call it free jazz and I'd not say that it's jazz in which the players improvise a structure. I'd say it starts out as a cluster f*** that somehow stumbles upon coherency. I'd also expect that happen very infrequently . . . which would lead me back to my characterizatrion of a cluster f***.Two different musical lines interact to create harmonies. That happens whether we intend it or not.
Sounds to me like you're describing structured interplay among other players morew than you're describing free jazz.
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I've been a free jazz listener and practitioner for over 40 years. First rule of the Cosmic Gumbo Free Jazz Manifesto....there is no manifesto....
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who are the best current free jazz guitarists? Halvorson? Ulmer? who?
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i think that she has some interesting things to say here. for one, she admits that it doesn't always sound good.
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I still like this track from Keith Tippett's 1972 improvised album "Blueprint".
Truly, astonishing, inspirational music that was pushing the envelope way back in 1972 and probably is still today.
I call it, "Improvised music".
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Here's a few good ones Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Joe Morris
Sonny Sharrock
Jeff Parker
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I was doing some free improv the other day, thinking of a time in the early 90s when I was backing up a poet at a coffee house. Pretty sure I could do a whole lot better now that I've had so much more life and playing experiences.
I remember it was interesting to react to the words with my guitar, fond memories. I should call that guy...
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Well, this ain't going as planned. Oh well.
I really like James Emery's stuff, to add to the mix. A lot of structure there too, in between some very free improvising.
Halvorson's writing for larger ensembles is really cool, but some of the smaller groups she works with, particularly the guitar/bass duos, don't really work for me. I'm not hearing the kind of listening I want to hear.
But that said, this is sublime:
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Back in the day my fav. album was Scofield/Frisell with Charlie Haden on bass, and i forgot the drummer, early 90's I think... They had some beautiful tunes on that album, and a some of them had sort of breakdown in the middle where they would go into what seemed like free jazz/ noise thing, and then they would come back to the main part. I really liked it and now I think free jazz can be a great 'spice' to add to a composition, or performance. But Im not sure I enjoy free jazz on its own for what its worth... Not from what I've heard so far. Maybe I just need to explore it more.
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I agree, I like free music the most when it starts and ends with structure. You can make any tune go free in the middle and it makes it really refreshing to come back into the melody. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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If it's Guitar orientated, Derek Bailey needs a mention.
So, open your ears, here's Stella:
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Here's a sample from a group that's been doing terrific 'free' playing, along with other things, for a long time. Clearly there's a structure, and also clearly they're really listening and reacting to each other:
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I could be wrong or I could be right, but I think that European Improvised Music is culturally very different. It seems to be more influenced by Contemporary Classical music than U.S.A Improvised Music. So, including a bit of a Debussy(ism) or Schoenberg(ism) wouldn't be a surprising occurrence in European Improvised Music.
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My choice and experience is always to play with other musicians, and when it comes to the free realm, it usually boils down to deciding whether it will be totally free and in the moment, or will we utilize some type of concept. I understand some folks say any predetermined guideline means it's not totally free, but in actual practice, lots of concepts can be discussed/applied in service to the music....or not.
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The young, adventurous piano playing phenom in San Diego, Joshua White... he plays in a 'free' style.
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incidentally the term free jazz is kind of misleading. On a forum like this you'll mostly get the same kind of reactions to the term
that other terms like "rap" get ("it sucks. end of story"). The reason is that most people haven't listened to its best
manifestations, or come to it with some constrained notion of what good music is, sort of like classical people can be towards jazz.
Sure, there's plenty of fake posing noodly crap calling itself free jazz, but frankly there's a whole lot more
fake posing noodly crap calling itself straight ahead jazz. If one is open to checking out the many many approaches
taken to playing "out", one great resource is the (unfortunately now defunct) destination: OUT web site.
they used to post clips of all the music they discuss, these seem to be gone, but it is still useful to get a "lay of the land", and you can probably find the sounds
elsewhere on the internets.
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hey ! its a free country Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Don't try this at home.
(Fred Frith.)
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I don't want to get involved in any arguments, nor do I wish to profess knowing anything about anything......just share some experiences and some of the joy behind freely improvised music.
I work in in music therapy, and a couple of years back my old internship supervisor would host monthly jam sessions where we would freely improvise. In addition to playing our primary instruments, we would have a pile of other instruments that people could grab from at anytime. This included a lot of percussion.
As the group evolved, we started incorporating movement and art, and people would at times break from playing/singing and working with mandala art.
Before we would begin each session also, each person in the room would state a general intention or some sort of challenge they were working through in their life. And at the end of the session we would verbally process our experience with the "jam." (or not, as nothing was mandated)
I really enjoyed those sessions, as it gave a chance to experiment within a group format, but it was without the pressure of having to meet anyone else's expectations. As a result, I have always enjoyed incorporating a lot of free improvisation with patients at the hospital where I work. Interesting to note that there are times I've noticed that there are patients who are sometimes more willing to listen, interact and not force an agenda, than when working with trained musicians.
I also wanted to share something I already shared in another thread, but I think is pertinent to this thread. That is the recent purchase of a masterclass by guitarist Rez Abassi who talks about how he warms up everyday by playing freely for an hour. My understanding is that he has been doing this "exercise/warm-up" for many years, and that it has deepened over time. I've started to incorporate this exercise a bit when I warm-up for about 3 days. It's actually hard for me to stay in the moment like this when working by myself. (He recommends staying in the moment versus thinking ahead for the purpose of this exercise).Last edited by srlank; 06-16-2015 at 06:04 PM.
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