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I like pkirk and Jordan's ideas. I think when people evaluate unfamiliar music they often treat it as monolithic. The rap example is a good one ... An outsider says "ugh you like that rap music?"
an insider responds "well I like so and so and this other guy but not that ... A lot of the stuff coming from New York in the nineties was very cool but the LA stuff not so much. Are you talking about what you hear on the radio? What about Erykah Badu and common? Please be more specific .,. There's a lot to like and a lot not to like."
the same goes for free jazz. Not all free jazz is good free jazz. The difference is that some people haven't listened enough to know what's what. There's also the problem of people using their own personal taste to determine somethings overall quality. That's a different matter.
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06-16-2015 06:26 PM
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So where does something like Lage's Sounding Point fit into all of this? There is certainly motivic development, but a lot of it does not sound preconceived (apart from the starting point and sometimes recapitulation). There strikes me as being a lot of listening and reacting. Plenty of consonance, but certainly not a lot of functional harmony...
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Is John Zorn free jazz? I sure dig most of the stuff he's done. Once a friend of mine dragged me to hear Marc Ribbot solo concert at the Stone, and he sounded very much like free jazz but in a good, unpretentious way, so enjoyed a lot too. But then there's someone like Mary Halvorston, who I understand represent the free jazz new blood, and I politely say no, thank you.
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Throwing paint at a canvas Doe'st make you a abstract painter !!!! painting for 30 years,Then throwing paint at a canvas,Makes you a abstract painter. Apply to guitar !
couple thoughts on this . 1st, even randomness has structure,cause your reacting to the sound you produce after that first note. my 2nd thought is, free jazz from the examples i've heard, seem to be a textual way of playing,if that make sense. rather then making music. especially if your playing solo. In a group setting ! isnt it are job as musicians to LISTEN ? then play a part that adds too...what everyone's doing. Even if your playing random note's and rhythm's . your still try to be TASTY right? and contribute to the texture,and feel your generating. Or it is a Cluster F### id think.To the ears... and if it goes back to structure ... ya need to have the skillz to be on it ! and actually play. id say free jazz is for the most skill'd musician possible. ???
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I agree the term is problematic. FWIW most of my jazz is 'free' jazz in terms of the digital marketplace...
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
But more seriously, I do more of this when playing drums than guitar. My ears aren't fast enough to pick up and react in an open, improvisational situation yet when playing guitar.
I do exercises like you describe, but try to sing the lines, as well. It's all an effort to be able to better connect the fretboard to my ear.
In regards to the comments in the thread, I have to wonder how Wayne Shorter would respond. Would he make the distinctions that many of us are making? My take is that he feels pretty 'free' when he's playing. Anything.Last edited by rictroll; 06-16-2015 at 09:17 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Hey Mr. B,
You're in Chicago: Paul Wertico and John Moulder do "free" stuff (and have albums of it, too)!
I like this trio album: they set up two mics in a church, and played:
http://www.amazon.com/Another-Side-P...s=paul+wertico
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Moulder's one of my favorites. A genuinely nice guy too.
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I've done it occasionally over the years. It depends which group of musicians I'm hanging with. I play in an on-again-off again Ornette tribute band where our starting points are mostly the "shape of jazz to come" era Ornette tunes, but we have a book with other things in them, usually lead sheets with some kind of theme or vibe or melodic/motivic material. Sometimes I approach it from a "clean" trad jazz guitar sound, other times I bring all my fx and have at it. I also play with a composer/trumpeter that writes some interesting and complicated music, which sometimes has "free" blowing sections, but he composition itself sets the scene and so we've got a starting/reference point. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Here's a link to an old quartet recording of a "free" tune I wrote. Meaning, the melody/interlude/outhead is composed, sort of. SoundClick artist: Paul Kirk - page with MP3 music downloads
I understand that most mainstream jazz guitar players have contempt for this kind of thing, but I think anything that gets you focused on group interaction is good no matter what your style is. A good way to get loose with people you haven't played with is to play free to start the session.
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
I'm never quite sure why people find it so easy to dislike MH. She plays with monster players: e.g. her bending bridges CD has Jonathan Finlayson, Ches Smith, Jon Irabagon, these guys are insanely good players who are all over the modern jazz scene from the most inside to the most outside. I think one reason is that many (not all) the freer players use a rock sound/aesthetic and she doesn't. I like her music. I also like her mentor Joe Morris.
Ribot is great. On my last trip to NYC I went to the Stone and caught Nels Cline with a free but totally groove based quartet, it was great.Last edited by pkirk; 06-16-2015 at 11:32 PM.
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I plead guilty for past MH hate, and for that, I apologize. It was misdirected. It really should have been directed at the critics who built her up to being the best thing since sliced bread. Really, what that was a sort of paternalistic sexism on the part of these so called critics. It's not fair to the performer to place her on such as pedestal. Originally Posted by pkirk
As for the topic at hand, I try to very modestly play free with no preconceived notions everyday.. I'm not very happy with it,I feel it lacks rhythm and feel most of all. When I try to play with no preconceived notions,I hope that all the various *systems* of musical understanding I have been working on will subconsciously working on will come to the fore.
By systems, I mean all the nuts and bolts of music I have been working on in the practice room, that, in free performance, hopefully comes out seamlessly and in an integrated manner. (conceding lines as up and down the fingerboard, not across,so as to allow possibilities for either counter-lines or harmonizing--three note vocings using the GTs in the bass; triads and drop 2 and 3 7th chords, especially spread triads (531 especially), and intervals- harmonizing lines in 3rds, 4ths,5ths, 6ths,ev8ths, 10ths, 11ths and 13ths--especially combining 10ths and 13rths.
So far, it only works very sporadically.Most of the time, I am not satisfied. But I've been able to pinpoint some key areas that need improvement. Basically, it's hard to play pianistically in a free sort of way on a guitar and try to maintain the proper pulse-feel-groove.
It's frustrating. But if music were easy, well....
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I mean this in complete seriousness. Please explain what I should be listening for to enjoy that clip. If I walked into any setting, and heard that, I think I would run, and I am a big guy, so thats not easy....
The closest thing it sounds like is guitar center on a saturday with one person that knows jazz.
I just don't get it.....
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Originally Posted by grahambop
I can see it now.....
You buy a guitar from this guy off ebay, the description says typical playing wear.
Guitar arrives with 1/8" gouges in the frets,
He replies "thats from the drumstick man"....
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Yes I was thinking how often does he have to replace his strings! Actually I find Fred Frith's stuff quite interesting. In some ways I would rather listen to someone exploring possible sounds on the electric guitar (like he does), than some of the high-intensity freakouts you get on the saxophone etc. Originally Posted by vintagelove
Perhaps this is an area where the electric guitar can be better than the traditional jazz instruments, i.e. getting into new sounds.
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This opens up exciting new possibilities for the cork-sniffers, now they can also argue about which brand of drumsticks is best. Originally Posted by vintagelove
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Well, I think it's fine not to like it, and I don't think anything I say can make you like it. Originally Posted by vintagelove
So I'll just tell you what I like about it...
The energy
The groove
The organic ebb and flow of the performance
The way the players pick up where each other is headed...when Mary comes in, she's playing drum hits, really...Marc brings things down and everybody follows...and then the blast of pure energy at the end.
I actually meant to link to part 2 of this performance, which, after another big energetic swell, Marc plays a somewhat warped but really pretty version of "I Should Care."
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[QUOTE=vintagelove;541731]I mean this in complete seriousness. Please explain what I should be listening for to enjoy that clip. If I walked into any setting, and heard that, I think I would run, and I am a big guy, so thats not easy....
The closest thing it sounds like is guitar center on a saturday with one person that knows jazz.
I just don't get it.....[/QUOTE]
The paradox of "free jazz"---2 big issues
"Q: Why do you mainly use standards as a basis for improvisation?
A: I think it's because I grew up with them, and they're well constructed. A tune like "Body and Soul"---which I'm still trying to learn all the way through---has a clear shape that you can work with and relate different harmonic and melodic ideas to. If you removed all the limiting factors from music, it would be sort of like tennis without the net, court and ball---just two guys standing in a field with rackets..."
I think we all realize that "free jazz" is not meant to be completely random...if that were not true...why bother to even tune an instrument?...remove all the frets and we can play every single pitch by sliding through them....no need for harmony or consonance/dissonance....everything is up for grabs, so to speak.
So....free jazz will employ some sort of structure...a rhythm...some riff....maybe a melody. The quest is pure improvisation----providing structure of some sort but without preconception. So far, so good, at least in theory. The problem is, doing this in the moment, is really, really difficult, in a way this is interesting and pleasant (?!) to listen to.
As a result, I think players can fall back into easy devices....the extended jam on some chord or tonality, the repetitive use of some rhythmic device, and the result is two guys batting the ball in a field, in a way that doesn't command our attention. By removing the structure, we've traded one set of limitations for another...and maybe not in a way that is good. Maybe The Who had it right in their song "Won't Get Fooled Again"....."meet the new boss, same as the old boss." So, that is one big consideration.
2nd Big Point: Technique, and the need for technique, allows us some sense of whether a person is skillful, or not....again back to the tennis analogy....watch Federer, Nadal or Djokovic chase down a wide approach shot at full speed, and then flick it back cross court for a passing shot winner...we see this, we know how difficult it is...we appreciate it.
Listen to Joe Pass play chord melody---the jaw drops; listen to Johnny Smith play single lines---pass the green Kryptonite---it's the only way to slow him down; listen to Sonny Rollins construct a solo---you can almost diagram it, even as you're listening to it...but it still flows without a stilted contrived sense to it....this is all skill that listeners recognize. In contrast, l look at the Fred Fith clip and see what he's doing....is he doing it well?....Can't tell....don't know what he's trying to do, really.
I like some "modern art"----post 1900, let's call it for simplicity's sake, Picasso was a talented draughtsman at a very early age and would have been an outstanding purely representational painter; the same is true of Jasper Johns, I believe, and Warhol to me, clearly has command of the print medium----technically he is very, very good....Others.....don't show this, or worse yet, may be just charlatans...or at least that is what we suspect when all elements of skill/technique are discarded.
BTW, the player who is quoted at the beginning of my response is Jim Hall. To me, he is a traditionalist, but he plays without cliché...how do I know this/test this?....I for one am constantly surprised by his playing...he is thinking outside of the usual boxes but working to provide some other boxes of his own....to me Lester Young has this same quality.Last edited by goldenwave77; 06-17-2015 at 09:33 AM.
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Very interesting discussion.
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[QUOTE=goldenwave77;541794]
Jim, for what it's worth, was a beautiful free player. Originally Posted by vintagelove
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[QUOTE=mr. beaumont;541798]
Originally Posted by goldenwave77
eg:
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Free play....L....
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[QUOTE=mr. beaumont;541798][QUOTE=goldenwave77;541794]
Jim, for what it's worth, was a beautiful free player.[/QUOTE]
He also mentions playing "free" with Jimmy Giuffre a little further along in the same interview.
I'm not trying to say "free" jazz is worthless or demands less skill: I think I'm saying the reverse, for the reasons noted.
I like some modern art--but think some of it, not very good or interesting, and think there are some outright charlatans engaged in it--their stuff is neither good nor interesting.
Music, it seems to me, has less of a problem in this sense----bad musicians get recognized pretty quickly, even by someone who is relatively untutored. (When I auditioned wedding bands, I remember going to some guy's house and watching a video---awful, awful stuff...flat trumpet player on "In the Mood"....dragging rhythm on "Johnny B. Goode, etc. I remember thinking "How can anyone who ever listened to the radio, even if they don't play, think this stuff is any good?" I was amazed he was trying to impress people with it....needless to say, left the house, said I'd be in touch, and never got back to him, of course.
BTW, over on the "efficient practice" thread---Reg. has mentioned playing free-style sessions with superior musicians. He talks about falling back on a storehouse of patterns/structure that he knows inside out by now.
Maybe, "free" jazz is a misnomer---maybe it should be called "free-er" jazz.Last edited by goldenwave77; 06-17-2015 at 10:12 AM. Reason: (Add wedding band anecdote)
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well... then rather Boulez - ism, Nono - ism, Sctockhausen-ism, Lachenmann - ism... or whatever...I could be wrong or I could be right, but I think that European Improvised Music is culturally very different. It seems to be more influenced by Contemporary Classical music than U.S.A Improvised Music. So, including a bit of a Debussy(ism) or Schoenberg(ism) wouldn't be a surprising occurrence in European Improvised Music.
hard to call Schoemberg or Debussy contemporary classics even for 50s
PS
I could never understand why Schoenberg stays so influential in US (even in this forum it is quoted so often)- he is often kind of academical reference...
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To me free jazz is very natural within jazz practice.
In my understanding it is musical practice based to highest level on the possibility of communicating through music to such an extent that a group can create an integral piece of music whiout any preliminary stipulations or agreed structure...
So to certain degree any jazz is free...
it is just matter of personal experience in all aspects - playing in all styles, technical skills, and playing with many many people etc...
There's always some lead anyway - so you either estimate it and someone picks up.. or you listnes and pick up...
no big difference essentially from playing through standard.. just less determined less referential formallyLast edited by Jonah; 06-17-2015 at 10:44 AM.
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I agree skill has to be the starting point ! and this needs to be renamed soon. maybe Jazz expressionism.
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I posted this on the "what are you listening to now" thread. Barney Kessel is obviously a more conventional player than a person like Sonny Sharrock but this is an uncommon example of someone like BK incorporating free ideas into their playing and some parts of this album are more free than others. This is a direction I've been going in my own playing and I play for a lot of what you could call squares (not really "Jazz People" but people who have never heard of either Joe Pass or Derek Bailey) and they dig it. "Free"dom is part of the jazz experience. It doesn't have to be just slop with no chops. Even Ornette's music had a strong compositional element. Who was it, Duke Ellington?, who said there's only two kinds of music, good and bad. Regardless of what you're doing musically if you always keep beauty in mind you'll do alright.
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