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i think the only 'work' involved is ...
learn the major scale all over
the guitar
learn the arps all over the guitar
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(and these two can be made fun too
if you do them with tunes)
then just play tunes !
which is fun right ?
learn heads , arr some chordmelody
out of your ears
the heads and their corisponding harmony will teach you
everything you need you need to know
about music
well a massive sh1tload about music anyway
I play most days , i don't even know if its
practice/work anymore
but i do know ...
if its 'work' I won't do it
if its play .... I will play
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06-04-2015 10:20 AM
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06-04-2015, 10:29 AM #27destinytot GuestGreat question.
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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Jason - that's the basic problem I see with many of my students. Too many choices and FEAR of everything, from playing it wrong to making mistakes. JUST DO IT. Even doing it wrong is so much better than not doing it at all.
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I totally agree except for the obsession thing Originally Posted by henryrobinett
but yeah ... simply play a lot and you will
get better ... can't help but get better
, more free , more power , more fun
my advice is toI am asking because if there's a forum member who can share some revelation about their attitude, some perspective, it could be useful in helping an aspiring guitarist gain the needed perspective to BE a guitarist through good practical work.
Take the word 'work' out of it ....
play tunes always , make it fun
make it funky
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That's been my motto so far. I'm glad to hear you confirm that, Henry! Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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I'm much better about it than I used to be. I still don't know as many tunes as I should but I am working on it. As far as the metronome thing goes I do both. Figured it won't hurt either way. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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For me obsession has been a good thing. I've been, until the last few months, obsessed with practicing guitar. My whole life. I'm ending a break soon, so I'll get back on the horse. But yes, sometimes obsession can be a good thing -- I think. It means single mindedness.
But rarely was I obsessed with GUITARS, or GEAR or instructional videos or books. Not that any of that would've been a bad thing. I definitely could have benefited from any and all of those things. But I saw them each as diversions from actually playing guitar. It was easier to see because I could see it in my students and other players who would come see me play at gigs. Some of these guys had all the latest gear and the best amps and all the books and could rattle off to me about this tube and that tube and what this player said and . . . . wow, they still COULDN'T play. I thought and often told them -- IF YOU JUST PUT HALF THE ENERGY INTO PLAYING THE GUITAR as you do into everything else guitar related you'd be a monster. Until you get that engine started the hardest thing to do is to sit down with the guitar and DO IT. Everything else is diversion.Last edited by henryrobinett; 06-04-2015 at 11:46 AM.
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Yes! I know this one! And curiously enough, sharing my fears helped me see my studies in a way that cleared that fear. When I arrived in this city, I looked up a great teacher. He was full and wasn't taking students but he was generous in answering anything I could ask. So I told him I was paralyzed by the fear of going down a dead end path, and I would waste time learning things that would be wrong or useless. He told me if I learn to hear, nothing will be useless or wasted. The choices of what we learn will only add to our own unique take on the music. In the end, there is no "proper jazz", there is the uniqueness we bring to it. Well I'm paraphrasing here but this is what Mick Goodrick told a young blocked aspiring guitarist and I took this and walked with it. Now I'm running with it. Originally Posted by jasonc
It's these little pieces of perspective I thought we could collect and help one another with. Heh, that story was long before the Internet, but it still deserves sharing with you, jasonc.
David
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The internet and forums aren’t good or bad, but how we use them and what we use them for can be good or bad.
I have some DOs and DON’Ts of forum participation that generally work for me. There can be exceptions, and everyone is different, so your DOs and DON’Ts may be different. But if you have concerns about time spent on the internet and in forums, or know people who do, it might be time to think about either writing out your own guidelines or encouraging say, a student to do so. Here are mine:
DOs
- Take inspiration and ideas from clips.
- Read more; write less.
- Contribute posts appropriate to my background. For example, I would post that I use TI flats on a certain guitar. I would generally not comment on the road worthiness of gear because I don’t get out that much.
- Tend to avoid contentious posts, like “So-and-so said this about that; what do you think?” They are almost always too full of chaff for the amount of wheat you get.
- Enjoy being part of the community. It has its own value IMO, even apart from enhancing our artistry and music appreciation.
- Act like a gentleman (or lady). If you want to look at this selfishly, remember that what goes around comes around.
- Have a time budget for the internet, among other things.
DON’Ts
- In general, avoid threads that are over my head. It's good to stretch, but beyond a certain point, stretching can be a distraction from what needs attending to first.
- Learn to spot which threads are fools’ errands and avoid them – at least avoid repeating them. “Is jazz dead?” “What do you think of Kenny G?” etc. … How many times do you need to participate in threads like these?
- Don't feed trolls; ignore them.
- Don’t feel you have to read every post by everyone in a thread. This can be dangerous and should be used sparingly, but it can save time in relation to what you learn. A simple example of this is when two people are carrying on a marginally germane side-argument. Another is when you have a very focused purpose for reading a fairly wide ranging thread.
- Usually the hardest one of all for me: Avoid GAS and avoid threads and web pages that contribute to GAS.
As you might imagine, I learned my personal guidelines by not following them and then regretting it. But for me at least, writing out guidelines and then practicing them helps me get more out of my time.Last edited by HighSpeedSpoon; 06-04-2015 at 11:51 AM.
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I wish I had more time to devote to practice. I'm doing well to get 30 minutes a day. Unfortunately work and family take priority these days. Of course there's a lot of distractions beyond that too. Television, computer, yard work, getting regular sleep etc.
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I'm doing a semi-regular bistro gig with a singer at the minute - playing mainly standards with some jazz versions of 80s pop songs (showing our age) - another guitarist (who is a good player) last Friday & commented on it being "...pretty naked being up there.." given that there are no other instruments - but it is the best thing I have ever done for my playing over the last 2 years because as Henryrobbinett says - just doing it is a great way to learn - what I know & what I need to work on - infact I'm convinced that at the present time the things that go wrong (& fook its not brain surgery so no one has died!) are the most interesting in terms of development. Practise is key but you have to get as much mileage as possible playing with other musicians Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Lot's of people (maybe everyone) use buying/talking about gear and dicking around on the internet as way to avoid practicing but still be able to identify as a guitarist. An hour on the guitar always beats and hour reading threads or shopping for gear you dont need. I'm certainly guilty of all of this.
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30 minutes is a lot of time! I know that people talk about hours of work a day and I think that is up to you if you've got the time, but you can do an enormous amount in 30 minutes. This is especially true if you have been thinking about what you want to do before hand. If I have a tune that's been going on in my mind, and I start into my slice of time focused, I can work on trying to find that tune by ear, for example, and to the best of my abilities it becomes something I can learn with. 20 years ago it may have been a lesson on hearing the tune, 15 years ago it may have been a tune that taught me about using the dominant 7th chord, last week it may have been a tune that led me to visualize better on the fingerboard. The point is, the ease I have now would seem magical to the me of 20 years ago, and it's there, in no small part, thanks to the 30 minute (or less) segments each of which gave me some revelation about the guitar, and yes, was more fun than a video game. It really was. The winning score I end with rolls over into the 30 minutes I have the next day. Originally Posted by dallasblues
Too, the brain activity doesn't end when I put the guitar down. I feel more musical, more connected and more confident after that time in the zone and connexions are still being made long after. I listen to the radio and I can hear more things.
I remember the day I was driving in the car and I realized I knew WHERE on the fingerboard I could play each sound I heard. The collected progress of each little step had brought me to a place that, away from the guitar, I suddenly realized was somewhere I never imagined.
David
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Some like to take a walk on the beach for pure at the moment enjoyment.
Others would prefer to go for a run in pursuit of improving their next time at the 10k running event; they get enjoyment in striving for that goal.
Others would prefer spending that time learning a new software language to help advance their career and improve their earning potential.
Given my full time job and other interests, I'm not spending much time playing guitar. I'm pretty much in the category of enjoying the moment when it comes to guitar playing these days, like the walk on the beach (which I also do). I'm not currently motivated towards improving my skills. My typical day as far as guitar time goes; pretty much just play for 15 minutes and play a few tunes. I don't consider that practice.
As an aside, I do like the social aspect of this forum, the sense of community, and the opportunity to read about and discuss common interests. I enjoy that so I do that too.Last edited by fep; 06-04-2015 at 05:16 PM.
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To add to this, I had a chance to learn guitar when I was around 13 years old. I bought a guitar and an amplifier from a pawn shop with some birthday money. Originally Posted by fep
It was not long before I would be working on my open chords near a window and would see the streets full of people having fun. I then had a choice: my room and guitar or playing football, basketball, soccer, riding my bike, or some other activity (not to mention some pretty girls I liked).
It was not long before I gave the guitar away to a drummer friend.
Now there are no youths to play with in the streets, no girls I am interested in (besides my wife), and now social scene that is making me feel I am missing out on anything. And now, I have my guitar and amp again, having the fun we could have had decades ago - and on my terms.
And like you, fep, I will take what I can get but I have never been one to let one thing control me - except my family and, at least for another ten years, my job.
Life is good at the moment. Life is short.
Last edited by AlsoRan; 06-04-2015 at 06:00 PM. Reason: waxed poetic...
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That's awesomely cool! When I started in middle school I just had the time. I just played. It was great. I was an only child. It was good finding something I could do by myself. Then it kept me out of trouble. I was good, I suppose. A lot of people said so. By the time of the awkward high school years being a good guitar player gave me a great leg up socially. Plus as a musician I had a license to be eccentric, which meant I could be socially awkward if I wanted to be and it was ok. But being pretty good also meant that I started playing with musicians 5-6 years older than me. And THAT made me want to play better. I never saw it as a career so much. It's just what I did. And being so young with guitar heros looked up to that just have me more fuel to the fire. I just worked harder at it.
There were other challenges and things to overcome. But I never quite felt good about myself and felt irresponsible if I DIDN'T practice. It's what I did.Last edited by henryrobinett; 06-04-2015 at 09:58 PM. Reason: typos
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Boy Henry, that's so similar to my upcoming...
I dunno. I spend a lot of time here talking about music...i listen all day, i play at least an hour each day...i teach, i jam with high school students...like you say. ..it's just who i am. Its never "hey, i should practice now..." i just play every chance i get...before work...at lunch...waiting for the pasta water to boil...sing tunes from "Frozen" with my kids...its my identity.
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Lucky for me it became my career. Maybe not so lucky but I never looked back. And it re-instilled the idea of responsibly for practicing and improving. Hell it became my whole life. It's how I met all the women in my life. My friends. My work. My identity. My children know me as a musician. They wouldn't know what to do if I did something else. Neither would my wife. Dad practices every day.
But you have to create all that. No woman I've ever been with tried to get me to do anything different. Except to maybe make more money. But if it came time for me to consider doing something else for it, my wife wouldn't hear of it.
I yam what I yam.
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imho...It vexes me too. Time spent on the instrument can't be substituted for anything else. Guys obsess watching youtube and thinking that's going to get them better. Or I don't know what. They need to get away from the music stores, catalogues, youtube videos and sit down and practice with obsession.
practice with obsession is possible when one is really obsessed... I mean when you do not think about anything else but how to get to doing this.
It is actually beyond any choice.
If you have choices that means that at the moment you're not really obsessed with anything... ok i have free tim - what should I do? Plying poker, playing guitar? maybe lute? maybe reading Dante? or maybe fworking over the article? ... why not just watching some movie.. value seems to be the same because of the optionality
There could be also a psycological problem - there are persons who try unconciously to avoid doing what they want to do... it is kind of fear of action, fear that it becomes too real.. that they get so overwhelmed with it that theyt cannopt stand. It can be cured with regularity too...
In this case doing something realtive to it - like 'reading book about it', ' wtching' etc. can be kind of psycological compromise...
actually pros are also subject to that but on the other level (it may concern not practicing but approaching new project etc)
it is just personal feature - I call it 'kafka syndrome' (meaninmg that Kafka for months regularily tortured himself that he should have written and knew what and how but did not... and then he broke into weeks of writing non-stop)
Actually it shows that talent take benefits from everything.
As poet said: if you cannot write poetry today, well.. write a poem about it.Last edited by Jonah; 06-05-2015 at 04:15 AM.
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Well this gets to a suspicion I have about human nature. Well known players/composers tell me they can't work until there is a certain elusive balance between "must do", "free time", "no pressure" and "deadline". I know I seem to get the best practicing done when there's something I don't want to go to and the phone app says the bus will be by in 4 minutes-ha ha. Originally Posted by Jonah
The myriad of traps our minds set, the things that keep us from acting, and the solutions we have found are what I was getting at from the start of this thread. I also know that some very extraordinary musicians have suffered with inaction but have only shared stories with me through oblique conversation, and they are not "lazy"; they simply have found a way through it. I have a good friend who is VERY well respected here on this forum and he writes amazing work. I find him a gig from time to time and he loves/hates it because it's the incentive to write new material. While not exactly the Practice Guitar/Watch YouTube conflict in the OP, I see it as perhaps a more advanced stage of the affliction. Maybe?
When I said this was an an unspoken problem, I really meant that. There is great talent out there, and there is extraordinary individualism in everyone. Using a medium like music is a personal process and perhaps practice block is more widespread than would be surmised by listening to those who do practice and advance on a regular basis.
Great ideas and some profound revelations coming out through people's postings. Thank you all.
Now if we could eventually hear from people who have begun to pick up their guitars...what they found in that experience...
David
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Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Great insight! Even though I only have a short time on the guitar each day my head is in the music before and after the practice session. When I'm at work, or mowing the lawn, I'm often thinking about what I wanna work on. If I'm working on a particular tune, I'm usually humming little lines I think might work over the changes. Then I try to apply them when I've got the guitar in my hands.
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Sometimes I cannot get to guitar so long that I overthink the idea... it's already all through from every side in my mind and I not interested any more)))When I'm at work, or mowing the lawn, I'm often thinking about what I wanna work on.
Actually I came to quite xontrary method - I do not think about what I am going to do in this cocern (I have other ussues to think over to - si I can choose)... whenever I pick up guitar
You know there are times with the family when you suddenly have a very short break - I mean 15 min. - so I just pick guitar and switch on 'jazz guitar trigger' in my mind and go on from the place stopped last time)
With such a schedule I really have to know exactly what to do right now.
But the problem comes out when the family goes to my mother-in-law for vacation --- lost and confused I walk around the house... all alone))) It usually takes me a few days to get used to new schedule... and not to get completely relaxed watching youtube in the night
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I am not being patronizing when I compare your mindset to others who were able to really master a particular skill or craft. Immediately I think of people (and I know they are cliche's) like Micheal Jordan, Dirk Nowitski, Larry Bird, and Kobe Bryant. For non-Americans, these were men who you could call"obsessed" with getting better and better at playing basketball. They spent hours in the gym practicing different portions of their game. They would ofter arrive long before others and would be the last to leave. In the offseason, they would keep it up while other might take the summer off, maybe gain 40 lbs. and then try to put it back together in training camp when the next season started. Your relentless pursuit of excellence reminds me of people like them. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
But let's talk "Obsession."
I was of the opinion that when you obsess about something, you are giving it control of your life. I have always tried to not let myself become obsessed with something since I have seen so many people lose their joy. It just seemed unhealthy, even though the outcome can be money, fame, popularity, and status - things so many people that obsess are truly after. I have seen guys put in wheelchairs after they got obsesses with being the best bronco-busting cowboy on the local rodeo circuit. I have seen guys die because they loved drag racing motorcycles. I have seen men lose their families because they were obsessed with being NBA Basketball players. I have seen guys lose all their money and at age 50 have to move in with their parents because of their obsession with a woman. I have seen people screw over fellow employees trying to get that promotion they were obsessed with. I won't go on but you get the picture.
I have always had a little of what some call an obsessive-compulsive streak. When I picked up the guitar again 8 years ago, I found that I no longer wanted to talk with friends and family. I skipped going to the gym. I would go to sleep trying to see that guitar line in my head. Once I found myself resenting my family when they would keep me from practicing I knew I had to change my attitude. I was making such great progress, too. Within a few months, I had my favorite songs memorized and could play all but the hardest parts of the solos. But once my family moved here to join me that all stopped.
This thread has made me kind of modify my opinion on obsessions a little. I guess if you can manage them, and fulfill your responsibilities and not become self-destructive, and they bring you joy, then maybe they are not so bad.
Again, I guess you just have to know how to manage them and be realistic so you don't sink into a depression and give up on life when it is taken away. If you lost both arms in an fire tomorrow and could no longer play guitar, could you go on? Or would you give up and die a slow living death?
I must admit, I am a little afraid of obsessions. I have seen to many try and apologize for the damage done once the "obsessive fever" is gone and their priorities change, but often, it is much too late.
(You folks have got to stop doing this to me! Let me get back to my kids.The wife is out of town, and we are supposed to be going to the zoo today! Maybe this forum is a bit of an obsession for me....?)
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I went through periods of time when I was obsessed with practice and dreamed of playing jazz guitar as a career. However, when that dream really looked impractical*, being obsessed with guitar took on another light.
For Me, practicing guitar felt like a very introverted and even selfish pursuit. I don't have a problem with that as I do think guitar playing has done a lot for my well being both mentally and physically (health wise). However, once I accepted that it is primarily a selfish pursuit, I question how much time should be allocated to it and to what end.
How much time? Given my current situation with a full time job, a wife and other interest, I think one hour a day is my upper limit. That is way short of my obsession level.
To what end? To have a creative outlet and to enjoy my hobby. As such, I'm much more interested in playing tunes and writing tunes than I am in practicing the guitar.
Playing music makes one a more rounded person. Being obsessed with playing music can make someone a less rounded person.
* As and aside, I also think music and especially jazz guitar as a career is pretty impractical for the vast majority of those pursuing it. Obviously this doesn't apply to those already making a living as a musician.
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You're a serious musician so it's understandable. I'm sure you dream about the music once in a while. Hopefully no nightmares though. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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