Practice Time: Hands on the guitar vs hands on the computer

[TH]

There are a lot of people that claim they want to learn to play jazz guitar. But it takes time to feel any satisfaction. There are a lot of people that are frustrated by their lack of progress. But they find time to spend on the internet or with their computer. There are some people who fantasize about creating the beautiful sounds of a chord melody or a simple elegant solo line, but stop their journey after they have an instrument in real life, yet they still comb the web for fantastic instruments, leaving their own strings silent.
So what are some of the chief criticisms of practicing, of spending time with the instrument in one's hands, that watching videos or accumulating other people's wisdom can be considered a better use of one's time?

Does anyone see this as an issue?

David

[joe2758]

in my case, I read this forum and look at videos etc at work where I can't play. I can't imagine using possible practice time combing the web with my limited time

edit to add: this WAS an issue for me in highschool when i did have a lot of time that could have been spent practicing. interesting topic. i think i was simply looking for the easiest road without taking very many steps

[pamosmusic]

Oh man ... I love this.

[joe2758]

oooohhhh. i think i missed the original point of this post. please leave me out of it haha

[TH]

oooohhhh. i think i missed the original point of this post. please leave me out of it haha

No. I didn't mean anything aside from asking something that vexes me, and in a most empathetic way. I just want to hear some honest reflective thoughts on the modern distractions, or ways that keep us from realizing something that I've found one of the deepest experiences in my life.
I really am simply asking about the perceived balance of practice time (when it's really available-not time at work- in the car, etc) and real available time that is optionally sacrificed at the detriment of the progress we so hunger for on some level.

I can understand not believing that practicing will not make you a better player... if I believed that, I wouldn't do it. But I wouldn't fantasize about being a better player either.
I can understand not believing in my teacher's advice. If I didn't have faith in someone else's instruction, I wouldn't follow it, but I also wouldn't pay for more.
I can understand that jazz guitar is an art of so much knowledge that someone might not know WHERE to begin, but it's ironic that that would keep someone from actually holding their guitar and learning to hear what comes out, with one step up the mountain, and deciding later if you need adjustment on what you know then.
But I'm really reaching out to the members here to ask a real question of substance: What is the criticism of practice and how might looking at it differently encourage some of us to a way that might get over the "block"? How does the attraction of computer generated convenience compete with something I feel is so essential: Learning to love your guitar.

I really do think this is an important unspoken issue. That's all
David

[rkwestcoast]

I think, if you have limited practise time due to work & family committments - the amount of time it takes to really internalise different aspects of jazz playing can be a major obstacle.

I attended a jazz workshop lead by Tony Micelli, the Philly vibes player, & he discussed this saying that to really achieve a good standard it is going to take time and if you can't go & woodshed for 12 months straight you need to develop patience and committment.

Equally, one of our local teachers advises that you should think in terms of how you develop over 6 or 12 month blocks rather then week to week - again commit to the long haul.

The attraction of the internet is that it gives instant, but meaningless, gratification

[TH]

I think, if you have limited practise time due to work & family committments - the amount of time it takes to really internalise different aspects of jazz playing can be a major obstacle.
...

Equally, one of our local teachers advises that you should think in terms of how you develop over 6 or 12 month blocks rather then week to week - again commit to the long haul.

The attraction of the internet is that it gives instant, but meaningless, gratification

Ah. Yes, I'm glad you said this. Y'know, most of those I know who HAVE achieved a good level of proficiency either didn't have to worry about measuring their progress (they loved whatever they were doing right from the start) or they DID think in the long term ( I love my family and I love my time on the instrument so for 15 or 30 minutes I'm going to be working on Autumn Leaves while you watch TV, I'll check my Email right before bed).

Time frame for payback really is important. I really don't even think of that. Thanks for sharing that.
David

[vintagelove]

We are living in about the best time to be alive to study anything. There are nearly endless resources.

Lazy people will always be lazy.... Driven people will always be drivin.

The discipline to practice everyday for hours is either there or it isn't, can't blame the Internet for that.

It makes me think about this story.

My father at 15 saved his lunch money, skipped school and took a bus to nyc to buy Albert kings born under a bad sign. To come back put it on the record player for three seconds at a time to figure out the album.

I can't even get some students to go on YouTube and play with some jam tracks....

[MarkRhodes]

I wake up early and play the guitar for an hour and a half, maybe two, before turning the computer on.

Most days, I play again in the afternoon and some more in the evening. Daily average would be 3 hours, some weeks closer to four (never under two).

My general health is pretty good but I can't play for six-eight hours a day. My hands get cranky sometimes as it is. No serious injury, just an awareness that I'm working them hard for a long time and they need some rest. I can get better (and hope to) but I don't think I could actually play much more in a day's time than I now do without running a real risk of injury.

[Badge]

There are those that do. And those that watch the doers.

Always been that way.

[dingusmingus]

But I'm really reaching out to the members here to ask a real question of substance: What is the criticism of practice and how might looking at it differently encourage some of us to a way that might get over the "block"? How does the attraction of computer generated convenience compete with something I feel is so essential: Learning to love your guitar.

I really do think this is an important unspoken issue. That's all

I don't know, does anyone actually dispute that gaining proficiency playing jazz guitar takes a whole lot of practice? Is there really a "criticism of practice," as you say?

Is your point that people should spend less time on the internet and more time practicing? I'm sure that's true for some people, but lots of other people practice a lot and still post on this forum. It is certainly not mutually exclusive.

[TH]

I don't know, does anyone actually dispute that gaining proficiency playing jazz guitar takes a whole lot of practice? Is there really a "criticism of practice," as you say?

Is your point that people should spend less time on the internet and more time practicing? I'm sure that's true for some people, but lots of other people practice a lot and still post on this forum. It is certainly not mutually exclusive.

I'm not shitting on forum members for being a part of this community, if that's what you think I'm saying, dingusmingus. On the contrary, I know there are many who wish they could play, they study theory, take part in many guitar related activities, even work jobs for thankless hours so they can buy a nice guitar. So I don't accept the simplicity of "Lazy people will not become players" answer.
I am asking because if there's a forum member who can share some revelation about their attitude, some perspective, it could be useful in helping an aspiring guitarist gain the needed perspective to BE a guitarist through good practical work.
As far as criticism, if you know on some level that you should, yet on some other level you don't, then there IS some critical reason that picking up an instrument is impossible.
There is some rationale in spending 45 minutes watching clips and nothing on the guitar. I don't buy that every frustrated unfulfilled guitar owner out there is hopelessly lazy.
That's what I hoped people might think about. Might help each other with.
David

[pushkar000]

Problem is one has to play jazz with others. Backing tracks will inevitably end up frustrating the user, regardless of how good the quality is. Then everyone is frustrated and comes here looking for something or the other. People - me included - coming here is quite logical. Jazz is a communal activity with a tiny tiny community. The Internet at least allows us to feel a little bit of the connection with other jazz fans.

[eddy b.]

When I teach the development of Western European Music to my 6th graders I make a point of illustrating the Enormous body of work that J.S.Bach left us, I ask the kids if they think had he had the option to spend endless hours gaming,instgramming,surfing etc. if he would have contributed so much music to the world. I doubt it.

[dingusmingus]

I'm not shitting on forum members for being a part of this community, if that's what you think I'm saying, dingusmingus. On the contrary, I know there are many who wish they could play, they study theory, take part in many guitar related activities, even work jobs for thankless hours so they can buy a nice guitar. So I don't accept the simplicity of "Lazy people will not become players" answer.
I am asking because if there's a forum member who can share some revelation about their attitude, some perspective, it could be useful in helping an aspiring guitarist gain the needed perspective to BE a guitarist through good practical work.
As far as criticism, if you know on some level that you should, yet on some other level you don't, then there IS some critical reason that picking up an instrument is impossible.
There is some rationale in spending 45 minutes watching clips and nothing on the guitar. I don't buy that every frustrated unfulfilled guitar owner out there is hopelessly lazy.
That's what I hoped people might think about. Might help each other with.
David

Ah, so I guess you're wondering how to motivate people to practice? Fair enough. I didn't get that from your OP--my bad.

We all could use a little motivation sometimes!

[pubylakeg]

I would hope that much of the good advice given on this forum, plus the oft repeated "no other way to crack it than by putting in the hours" should be sufficient motivation to practice.

I also think that the lack of banalities on this forum indicates that most of the contributors here are thinking/playing and addressing the challenges that playing Jazz presents.

Personally,like Mark, I cannot practice for an unlimited amount of time due to the risk of injury. My computer is in a different room to where I practice. Ironically, I find typing aggravates the same pains that playing gives me. I guess I'll give them both up and watch TV instead.

[fep]

So what are some of the chief criticisms of practicing, of spending time with the instrument in one's hands, that watching videos or accumulating other people's wisdom can be considered a better use of one's time?

Wow! That is incredible patronizing.

Patronizing, I mean this... treat condescendingly, condescend to, look down on, talk down to, put down, treat like a child, treat with disdain

[pamosmusic]

Hey man .... Truth hurts

[TH]

Wow! That is incredible patronizing.

Patronizing, I mean this... treat condescendingly, condescend to, look down on, talk down to, put down, treat like a child, treat with disdain

Frank, I don't see it that way, and I truly regret it if I come across this way. I'm not being facetious, ironic or pandering when I say this. Damn, maybe I should just request this thread be removed. Here's where I'm coming from. I see it hits a real tender nerve.
OK, I spend a lot of time with students and other music teachers. No big deal, it's just my world, and there's a detrimental phenomenon that goes unspoken, unacknowledged, and unaddressed: Regret that individuals have that they aren't better or more able players.

I'm not talking about people who work on their instruments and have found the limits of their imagination, I am simply addressing the ostensibly undeniable discrepancy that exists between people that identify themselves as jazz guitar enthusiasts and the regret that they have over not being able to play. Yet with all of these people, their peripheral knowledge, gleaned from their time with their time with their computers is something that comes at an unseen cost. They don't practice.

Let me give an example. A fellow I know has an incredible guitar and amp collection. He desperately wants to be able to attend jams. He dreams about this and it motivates him to do all sorts of research on everything music related. He sends me links of musical performances, he finds inspiration from books about mastery...yet something very deeply seated in him prevents him from seeing his guitar as a part of this process. He literally will spend an hour watching and reading about the jazz guitar world and at the end of two years has not spent the time on his guitar to identify intervals or chord changes by ear. And truth be told, he's not proud of this.
Other teachers see this played out in one way or another.

Now rkwestcoast posted something really useful. Be aware of the differing timeframes of reward and effort. Simple to say if it's not a problem for you, but maybe a life changing revelation to one stuck in the "loop" of MeTube.

Maybe it sounds like harsh judgement I'm making on people that harbour that secret regret over their lack of practice, and maybe my unwillingness to call it laziness comes across as patronizing, but I don't know how else to ask this question. And it really does seem like a question that for some, needs to be asked. How might we see things in a perspective so those that really want to play, won't open their eyes a decade later and wish they had spent their time differently?

Is this a patronizing question? I think it would be more patronizing to give heartless praise and not to address the regrets of a student who gets the rush of music yet can't yet figure out why they themselves can't make that music themselves.

Frank, if you've never seen someone stuck in a rut over some rationalizing not practicing, maybe what I'm feeling here is just BS to you. You're not who I'm talking about here, I'm glad you are one of the ones that has a connexion with your guitar. In that, I am truly not being patronizing.

David

[fumblefingers]

There are a lot of people that claim they want to learn to play jazz guitar. But it takes time to feel any satisfaction. There are a lot of people that are frustrated by their lack of progress. But they find time to spend on the internet or with their computer. There are some people who fantasize about creating the beautiful sounds of a chord melody or a simple elegant solo line, but stop their journey after they have an instrument in real life, yet they still comb the web for fantastic instruments, leaving their own strings silent.
So what are some of the chief criticisms of practicing, of spending time with the instrument in one's hands, that watching videos or accumulating other people's wisdom can be considered a better use of one's time?

Does anyone see this as an issue?

David

i think it's a great question. great question.


so..... what kind of strings should i use?

what's your favorite amp?

carved or laminate?

[eddy b.]

I too have met many music lovers, listeners of incredible passion and knowledge that want to play yet for some reason "can't". It always makes me feel a little sad for them. I think some aren't aware of what they "believe" about themselves. I think some "want" but believe (perhaps subconsciously), they"can't". For some it's a "late start", for others it is too overwhelming to be at point B when they're trying to get to point J, others have real demands on their time that are non-negotiable. It is difficult to convince anyone that wants to play jazz guitar the necessity of years of trying and utterly and completely failing, in that way for me jazz guitar is a lot like golf or bicycle road racing, a lot of effort without recipricol success. I think some get used to quick results, progress that follows a linear path whereas in my experience that relationship changes with the amount of time spent playing and practicing. There is a point where this jazz guitar becomes hard, too hard, frustrating and humbling, some people don't want to feel this from their hobby. Some times it's just more fun to like something do it a little bit and be comfortable with wanting to do it better but not really wanting it enought to do anything about it. It's okay. We all know actions speak louder than words. I believe in the little train that said he could. I think I can I think I can ad infinatum.

[fep]

@truthhertz

David, I'm sorry I read it that way. Your explanation makes sense.

[AlsoRan]

This thread describes me to a certain extent. I am a Jazz guitar enthusiast and an enthusiast almost equally of a couple of other music genres, depending on my mood. Thank God there isn't a Blues Guitar Forum, a Hard Rock Guitar Forum, and an 80' Metal Guitar Forum, etc...

But I digress, I enjoy playing trying to play the Jazz on the guitar, and I also enjoy reading and hearing the thoughts of Jazz Guitar enthusiasts, such as you folks. It is really entertaining and the tips given remind me of tips given for cooking. Try this spice but not this one, cook it in a skillet with oil, use heat on a low setting, etc.. I take these tips and enjoy trying the different recipes on my guitar trying to come up with a nice song to serve to myself.

I also like to watch the videos and listen to the songs. It is entertaining. Some are just what I like, others not so, but still entertaining.

Unlike some of the folks you describe, I do not lack confidence that I could be a, for lack of a better word, a "serviceable" Jazz guitarist if I stay on my present path. I base this on the fact that songs are becoming easier and easier to play, technically, and I am able to actually retain some of the lines and music that I want to make with a given song.

I guess what it comes down to is this: You don't have to worry about a lot of us internet Jazz players. Playing Jazz guitar is just gravy for a lot of us on a life well fulfilled. The allure of Jazz Guitar keeps us hanging around the forum, and buying nice toys and despite our frustrated complaints that come out from time to time, we are still enjoying the journey and rubbing shoulders with you folks who know what you are doing, picking up little tidbits to try that may or may not have the motivation, desire, or drive to make work for us.

[henryrobinett]

It vexes me too. Time spent on the instrument can't be substituted for anything else. Guys obsess watching youtube and thinking that's going to get them better. Or I don't know what. They need to get away from the music stores, catalogues, youtube videos and sit down and practice with obsession.

[jasonc]

I'm not sure how relevant this is but I'll tell you about some of the problems I've had practicing. First of all, it is very hard to practice if you don't have a reason to. If you're not playing with other people it's very difficult to maintain the stuff you've learned. For example, one of my biggest failings is that I just don't know any tunes. All the bands I've ever been in someone else played the heads so I never bothered to learn them and as a result I can't play many tunes without reading them. I'll get on kicks where I learn a bunch of tunes but then I'm not gigging (or just not playing those tunes) and I forget them because I'm not playing out enough to keep them up. Another problem I've always had is that I'm so afraid to learn something wrong that I just don't ever work on it. My time has been something I've really needed to address so I hear a lot of people say to practice with the metronome on 2 and 4 and then I'll hear guys like Barry Harris and Hal Galper say that 1 and 3 are the beats you should be working with. Being afraid to have to unlearn something I just don't work on it like I should. Much to frustration of my old professor I used to do the same thing with classical pieces. Me: "Julian Bream puts a trill here but John Williams puts it here and he rolls this chord instead." Professor: "Just learn the damn notes so you can play the piece!"