Whiplash the Movie

[destinytot]

That was the only part of the movie that really bothered me (along with the physical violence).

It bothered me, too.
In fact, that's what made me realise that - in the context of the story of his transformation - the protagonist was entering The Abyss.

That's why they should have tamed it down.

I'm not sure I agree.
Perhaps I'm naïve, but I hope audiences have enough sophistication for metaphor to speak to them.
On the other hand, if audiences take it literally and are offended, the metaphor isn't working. It worked for me.

[pamosmusic]

Just read that Ethan Iverson essay. Super interesting stuff. His blog is outstanding

[sgcim]

Great story. I was friends with and studied with the late Walt Namuth who was a great player from DC. Walt played with buddy for many years. Walt could read but was not a "by the chart" kind of guy. I heard that when he left, buddy fired a bunch of guitarists who "couldn't read". In truth, they were playing what was written but Walt embellished so much that he didn't know that 90% of what he played wasn't on the charts.

Wow, Walt Namuth was a total mother!
What type of stuff did he show you?
Did you ever run into a keyboard player at the U of Miami named Alan Farina? Wild dude!
That's a great compliment by Hank. He had a tenor player at the Quinnipiac Festival that blew us all away. I don't know if I still have the program from that concert, but I'll look for it.

Buddy would fire musicians left and right, especially bass players, but I used to play with some great musicians who were fired for weird reasons.
One pianist told me he got a note from Buddy's manager to see him in his office.
The manager told him that he was fired because Buddy said he didn't swing. The exact same thing happened to a sax player friend of his.

[jzucker]

Wow, Walt Namuth was a total mother!
What type of stuff did he show you?

Not a whole lot if truth be told. He was a very weird dude. He once called me out of the blue and told me how great I was and said that he really would like to help me become even better and that I could be the best guitarist around, especially with his tutelage. I was very flattered until he then said, "and by the way , could you send me 2 months' lesson fees in advance?"

I think he had some substance issues at that time...

Did you ever run into a keyboard player at the U of Miami named Alan Farina? Wild dude!
That's a great compliment by Hank. He had a tenor player at the Quinnipiac Festival that blew us all away. I don't know if I still have the program from that concert, but I'll look for it.

The name is familiar but I don't remember playing with him. I did play a lot with T Lavitz. He was a great guy and a huge partier.

Buddy would fire musicians left and right, especially bass players, but I used to play with some great musicians who were fired for weird reasons.
One pianist told me he got a note from Buddy's manager to see him in his office.
The manager told him that he was fired because Buddy said he didn't swing. The exact same thing happened to a sax player friend of his.

I've heard that as well.

[dingusmingus]

I went back and read Ethan Iverson's full post and still stand by the statement that it's an idiotic statement. Yes, the roots of jazz and drumming are importing to recognize. That doesn't mean liking a white drummer's playing the most makes you racist. I also think his essay is guilty of what I'm talking about above. It puts an onus of responsibility on the movie which isn't deserved.

Fair enough. It is hard for me to imagine anyone digging that style more than Elvin Jones or Art Blakey (and I know you're not saying that yourself), but that's what makes horse races. The discussion did remind me of this:
[warning: cursing]

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to seeing the movie, and I agree with the general premise that it's not the movie's job to reflect jazz well, or as it really is, etc.

To Jack's point, I'm a lawyer, and I enjoy all kinds of shows that get the law way wrong.

[pamosmusic]

Also iverson recently posted a guest post that is a little bit of a pro buddy rich rebuttal since his didn't put buddy rich in the most positive light. If anyone is interested.

Traps, the Drum Wonder (by Mark Stryker) - Do The Math

[sgcim]

Not a whole lot if truth be told. He was a very weird dude. He once called me out of the blue and told me how great I was and said that he really would like to help me become even better and that I could be the best guitarist around, especially with his tutelage. I was very flattered until he then said, "and by the way , could you send me 2 months' lesson fees in advance?"

I think he had some substance issues at that time...


The name is familiar but I don't remember playing with him. I did play a lot with T Lavitz. He was a great guy and a huge partier.



I've heard that as well.

That Namuth story reminds me of a Steve Grossman story a friend of mine told me.
He saw Grossman playing in a club, and he asked him if he could take some lessons with him.
Grossman said, "Sure, but you have to pay for your first lesson now."

You'd remember Farina if you saw him- he was voted most likely to become a serial killer by his high school class.
He once got arrested when he was playing in Atlantic City for just looking dangerous!
He used to mention something about things that Pat Metheny used to write on the walls of the practice rooms(?)

[jzucker]

what did metheny write?

[entropy]

what did metheny write?

"When I was 19, I was already better than you'll ever be."

[Stevebol]

Whiplash was like the opposite of a rock concert. I used to go to a lot of concerts in the old days and we'd say oh no, here comes the drum solo. With Whiplash I couldn't wait to get to the drum solo. I didn't like the music very much but the drum solo was good.
I'm going to watch the movie again right now. I think I'll like it better second time around.

[Stevebol]

Saw it again. It was a good movie and showed some insight into teaching. Fletcher wasn't a hot-shot himself so having a student who was one was a big deal to him. Teachers who have a rep as players aren't going to be that concerned with having star students. They want to produce good musicians. The more the merrier.
I liked the angle with the girlfriend. She didn't care about jazz and that's good. She didn't pretend or put on a front about it. He sure screwed that up.
The music in the movie kind of sucked except for the drum solo. Young musicians ask, is jazz just fast? Well yes. There isn't much else to consider these days. Not much artistry now.
It was an interesting movie. Different. It doesn't make me wish I had gone to jazz school though. Too much reading and not enough jamming for me.
When he talked to his ex and she said her new boyfriend didn't care for jazz that must have hurt but he had it coming to him.

[jzucker]

The music in the movie kind of sucked except for the drum solo.

sorry, you lost me there. The band was great and hank levy is a great writer. Outta here. Ugh...

[christianm77]

"When I was 19, I was already better than you'll ever be."

Ha ha what a douche. The worst thing is he's right....

[DRS]

Like the meme says, Whiplash isn't about jazz. Whiplash uses jazz to tell an ancient story, the Hero's Journey. This movie has been made before, just not with a jazz musician. Still an enjoyable movie.

I enjoyed the music but oddly, enough, not the drumming per se. While I acknowledge Buddy Rich's incredible technique, I've never been a fan of the Buddy Rich style of drumming. Let's just say that it is a cultural thing this whole athletics of music. You see it in rock guitar and Buddy Rich was its prime exponent in jazz. The "Drum Thing" article is bang on, to me.

I love big bands and this jazz was big band jazz so I can understand why bebop guys don't get it. That's one factor in the creation of bebop - musicians who were disillusioned with the top down control of the big band. Both jazz, just different.

As far as the merit of the Fletcher character's methods, well, the Hero has to overcome some force larger than himself in order to be transformed. In real life, no instructor in an institution would ever last very long acting like Fletcher does. But it's a nice story.

[DRS]

Whiplash was like the opposite of a rock concert. I used to go to a lot of concerts in the old days and we'd say oh no, here comes the drum solo. With Whiplash I couldn't wait to get to the drum solo. I didn't like the music very much but the drum solo was good.
I'm going to watch the movie again right now. I think I'll like it better second time around.

I'm the opposite, I couldn't wait for the drum solo to end so I could hear the lush, harmonically rich music of the full band kick in. Drum solos like that are like the guy with the 500hp Camaro that feels the need to do a brake stand at every stop light.

[docbop]

Like the meme says, Whiplash isn't about jazz. Whiplash uses jazz to tell an ancient story, the Hero's Journey. This movie has been made before, just not with a jazz musician. Still an enjoyable movie.

I enjoyed the music but oddly, enough, not the drumming per se. While I acknowledge Buddy Rich's incredible technique, I've never been a fan of the Buddy Rich style of drumming. Let's just say that it is a cultural thing this whole athletics of music. You see it in rock guitar and Buddy Rich was its prime exponent in jazz. The "Drum Thing" article is bang on, to me.

I love big bands and this jazz was big band jazz so I can understand why bebop guys don't get it. That's one factor in the creation of bebop - musicians who were disillusioned with the top down control of the big band. Both jazz, just different.

As far as the merit of the Fletcher character's methods, well, the Hero has to overcome some force larger than himself in order to be transformed. In real life, no instructor in an institution would ever last very long acting like Fletcher does. But it's a nice story.

I'm with you on Buddy Rich he is an amazing technician, but I don't find him very musical. One of my high school Jazz band buddies played with Rich for a long time, so heard a lot of the nasty stories, and my buddy eventually left after he worked up to 1st chair, but 1st chair meant sitting next to Rich and having to listen to Rich's BS between every song. But he got his chops together and had a very successful studio career after Rich's band.

On the big bands and bebop guys. The Swing bands is where the Bebop guys got their start and many got asked to return, but the material to them was too boring and Bebop soloing was frowned upon. They did like the later hipper bands like Dizzy and others had. For me I grew of listening to Swing bands because that is what my parents listened to A LOT. I grew tired of it and because kind of a anti big band rockers, until I went to music school and discover Jazz big bands playing newer charts and firer soloing. I end up playing in a lot of big bands at colleges and rehearsal bands. So I don't think it was so much the control thing that turned Bebopper off, but the material and limited solos they could take.

[christianm77]

I love big bands and this jazz was big band jazz so I can understand why bebop guys don't get it. That's one factor in the creation of bebop - musicians who were disillusioned with the top down control of the big band. Both jazz, just different.

As far as the merit of the Fletcher character's methods, well, the Hero has to overcome some force larger than himself in order to be transformed. In real life, no instructor in an institution would ever last very long acting like Fletcher does. But it's a nice story.

Yeah, the big band thing is quite alien to me, like many small band centric players. But it is a real tradition. I've been checking out a lot Jelly Roll Morton, for example, and there really is very little improvisation here - the same is true of much early Ellington. Organised music, tightly composed with set piece solos.

If you were a jobbing sax player sat next to Lester Young in the 1930 or 40's, jazz would not have been about improvisation for you, and all about playing the right notes as a tight ensemble. Old school apprenticeship. I have a friend who played a big band gig recently playing Metheny's music at Ronnie's with a one of London's best jazz guitarists (Phil Robson) - and he wasn't doing no improvising that night :-)

It was one my points in my slightly controversial (or just wrong depending who you ask :-)) argument that jazz is not necessarily about improvisation elsewhere in these forums.

[christianm77]

On the big bands and bebop guys. The Swing bands is where the Bebop guys got their start and many got asked to return, but the material to them was too boring and Bebop soloing was frowned upon.

while there's an element of truth to this, I think that's a bit simplistic. Boppers (1st and 2nd generation) did dance gigs for bread. Barry Harris for example recalls first hearing Charlie Parker on a dance gig in Detroit. He wasn't holding back.

At some point jazz started becoming a little more respectable and the idea of establishments specifically about listening to (well at least sipping cocktails and talking through) jazz as opposed to dancing to it caught on, and jazz musicians realised they could get paid more money doing that.

As far as soloing goes - well the '78s of the time do paint a distorted picture. There are recordings at IIRC the National Jazz Archive which capture the spirit of the live jazz practice of the time at the Savoy dancehall, among other venues, where the performing practice especially from the black bands was much closer to what we think of as bop - more adventurous soloing, multiple choruses, burning tempos etc. I haven't heard these recordings myself (I need to get to NYC!) but we don't think of early bebop sides as representing actual bop performance practice, so why do we assume the same with swing bands?

But I don't think you would have found any bop musicians who didn't have a deep reverence for the great swing players, and the great swing bands. After swing might be Glenn Miller and the Andrews Sisters, but it's also Chick Webb and Jimmy Lunceford. Sure it was a constricting environment and young musicians (retroactively lumped together as 'bebop') were keen to find new modes of expression, but the impression I get was that in many ways it was very organic.

[christianm77]

Btw - dance hall gigs kind of meant big bands AFAIK because this was pre PA. If you wanted more sound you needed more players.

Again I might be wrong on this :-)

[Jonzo]

Back in the day, I went to a high school that had one of the better jazz bands in the country, and they did big band stuff. The teacher wasn't mean, but he was gruff, and didn't candy coat his criticism. The sound of the ensemble was the focus, rather than improvisation. The concerts were impressive, but only a few kids took a solo.

Now, my kids go to a high school where small combos are the focus, and they do very well at festivals too. The teachers are super gentle. The kids become really good improvisers, but might struggle in a challenging big band setting. Some performances can be a little painful because--ready or not--everyone is going to take a solo on almost every tune.

I don't know if this is a common pattern, but it seems like a gentle teacher would be best for learning to improvise, because mistakes have to be tolerated--even embraced.

[Vladan]

I watched it last week. Not bad. Rather clichee, IMO.

[Stevebol]

I'm the opposite, I couldn't wait for the drum solo to end so I could hear the lush, harmonically rich music of the full band kick in. Drum solos like that are like the guy with the 500hp Camaro that feels the need to do a brake stand at every stop light.

You think all those stabs over dubious grooves was 'harmonically rich'? It was rich alright, as in Buddy.
To each his own.
Fletchers methods were suspect but he understood jazz these days. FASTER YOU LAZY KIDS!!

[jaco]

I've been studying with Larry Coryell almost two years now. He has told me "this takes a lot of work and it isn't easy". Jazz as any art form takes discipline. He has been hard on me at times...and I appreciate it. There was an interview with him where he stated " if I see a student with talent, I will be harder on them". But he has apologized when he thinks he may have crossed a line. I think the teacher in this movie saw something in his student, and pushed him hard...was it too hard? Probably. It's a great movie. I went to Berklee in the early 70's when Pat Metheny had just started teaching...Sco was still around, Mike Stern, Mick Goodrick, Jamie Glaser, and more that never became famous. It was tough, but made me a better musician than I ever hoped to be.

[sgcim]

what did metheny write?

I forgot what he said- I was hoping you could tell me!

He (AF) was bugged about Miami Sound Machine making it big.
He said all the jazz majors used to go down to make fun of them at the clubs they played at, because they were so lame.

[jzucker]

just watched whiplash again. The final version of caravan at the JVC jazzfest was just !@#$ stunning. If you think the music was bad you probably shouldn't be playing jazz or maybe it's just time to get the ears checked.

The arrangement, the ensemble and the drumming was ridiculously good.