Whiplash the Movie

[sgcim]

just watched whiplash again. The final version of caravan at the JVC jazzfest was just !@#$ stunning. If you think the music was bad you probably shouldn't be playing jazz or maybe it's just time to get the ears checked.

The arrangement, the ensemble and the drumming was ridiculously good.

Some of the guitarists on this forum came from fusion and rock, and haven't been exposed to great artists such as Hank Levy, Manny Albam, Thad Jones, Bob Brookmeyer, Oliver Nelson, Gary McFarland, and all the other great arrangers, because they haven't played in any hip big bands.

[jzucker]

Some of the guitarists on this forum came from fusion and rock, and haven't been exposed to great artists such as Hank Levy, Manny Albam, Thad Jones, Bob Brookmeyer, Oliver Nelson, Gary McFarland, and all the other great arrangers, because they haven't played in any hip big bands.

I agree but that's their loss. Don't say something is not jazz if you haven't done your homework.

[fumblefingers]

I've been studying with Larry Coryell almost two years now. He has told me "this takes a lot of work and it isn't easy". Jazz as any art form takes discipline. He has been hard on me at times...and I appreciate it. There was an interview with him where he stated " if I see a student with talent, I will be harder on them". But he has apologized when he thinks he may have crossed a line. I think the teacher in this movie saw something in his student, and pushed him hard...was it too hard? Probably. It's a great movie. I went to Berklee in the early 70's when Pat Metheny had just started teaching...Sco was still around, Mike Stern, Mick Goodrick, Jamie Glaser, and more that never became famous. It was tough, but made me a better musician than I ever hoped to be.

Well good for you! I am a huge Larry fan, been listening to him since Three or Four Shades of Blues with Mingus. Nobody plays like Larry.

I spoke with him for a brief moment after seeing his show at the Jazz Showcase in late 2003/early 2004 (I don't remember the date but I do remember the snow outside). He autographed something for me, the first time in my life I've ever cared about seeking an autograph.

Study hard!

[Jonzo]

just watched whiplash again. The final version of caravan at the JVC jazzfest was just !@#$ stunning. If you think the music was bad you probably shouldn't be playing jazz or maybe it's just time to get the ears checked.

People with different tastes than you should probably go ahead and keep playing jazz.

Don't say something is not jazz if you haven't done your homework.

Jazz is an infinite subject. You can delve deeply into one corner, or study a broad swath. Either way, you are doing your homework. People approaching jazz from many unique perspectives is what will save it from slavish devotion to jazz-snob orthodoxy.

You can be knowledgeable of the "jazz orchestra" genre and still hold the opinion that if you are restricted to what's on the chart, you are not really playing jazz. I've heard people with deep jazz careers make just this assertion, despite what the Wikipedia entry says. You can debate that assertion, but don't disparage people as unknowledgeable, or lacking taste, just because they disagree with you.

[smokinguit]

People with different tastes than you should probably go ahead and keep playing jazz.




Jazz is an infinite subject. You can delve deeply into one corner, or study a broad swath. Either way, you are doing your homework. People approaching jazz from many unique perspectives is what will save it from slavish devotion to jazz-snob orthodoxy.

You can be knowledgeable of the "jazz orchestra" genre and still hold the opinion that if you are restricted to what's on the chart, you are not really playing jazz. I've heard people with deep jazz careers make just this assertion, despite what the Wikipedia entry says. You can debate that assertion, but don't disparage people as unknowledgeable, or lacking taste, just because they disagree with you.

I don't think Jack Zucker is being contentious at all. It seems to me you are. He's just stating his opinion that there is such a thing called jazz. In my opinion jazz is not whatever you want it to be. There is certain guidelines that make jazz what it is, namely having a good sense swing.

[Stevebol]

Saw it 2 1/2 times so far and it's a great movie. Topical and very American. No wasted dialogue. There's plenty of food for thought about the teaching profession. Fletcher liked to play pretty, laid-back jazz. He was never going to be the star. He thought the younger generation was lazy.
Sometimes a movie can go way beyond the sum of it's parts. I wonder if JK Simmons didn't bring a lot to the role that was unexpected.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

lol...the movie is about a drummer...like who cares?....lol

Q: What do you call a person who hangs around musicians?




A: A drummer.

[AlsoRan]

I don't think Jack Zucker is being contentious at all. It seems to me you are. He's just stating his opinion that there is such a thing called jazz. In my opinion jazz is not whatever you want it to be. There is certain guidelines that make jazz what it is, namely having a good sense swing.

I have to admit, I held my breath (so to speak) because Jonzo's reply at that point is what starts the venom rolling in threads. I looked at it and wondered if it would be a turning point, and if sir Jonzo would then be wondering what he did wrong and why everyone is ragging on him.

An opinion was given without a direct attack aimed at any one person. You can hear this same type of opinion in any of a number of professions and disciplines, and I can easily see it being said with a smile.

You just can't be this sensitive, Jonzo. Reread your words and picture what you thoughts were when you inserted your conclusions in between the lines.

BTW, I have noticed that there have been a lot of little scraps going around here in the last couple of weeks on a lot of threads - even involving some who normally take the high ground.

I guess it must be Spring.

Back to the thread...

[docbop]

BTW, I have noticed that there have been a lot of little scraps going around here in the last couple of weeks on a lot of threads - even involving some who normally take the high ground.

I guess it must be Spring.

Back to the thread...

or they are snowed in so taking their frustrations out online.

[cosmic gumbo]

[jzucker]

lol...the movie is about a drummer...like who cares?....lol

Q: What do you call a person who hangs around musicians?




A: A drummer.

let's hear you play with elvin, jeff watts, jack dejohnette or tony williams. 'nuff said.

[pamosmusic]

lol...the movie is about a drummer...like who cares?....lol

Q: What do you call a person who hangs around musicians?




A: A drummer.

What makes a vacuum cleaner and an electric guitar so much alike?

They both suck when you plug them in.


Got that from a flat-top bluegrass pickin' buddy of mine quite a while ago. Enjoy.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

let's hear you play with elvin, jeff watts, jack dejohnette or tony williams. 'nuff said.

Haha man... it was a joke...

I do realize that drums/percussion are one of the hardest instruments to play both physically and mentally. I certainly can't do it however I do know the difference between a "good" drummer and a "bad" drummer. This is from having played with bother good drummers and bad ones over the years. I have seen Jack Dejohnette in concert. Amazing drummer and pianist!

Back to the topic....I have not seen the movie however from reading some of the reviews it sounds like a movie that has been "done before" so it would really hold no interest for me regardless of the content.

[drbhrb]

Haha man... it was a joke...

I do realize that drums/percussion are one of the hardest instruments to play both physically and mentally. I certainly can't do it however I do know the difference between a "good" drummer and a "bad" drummer. This is from having played with bother good drummers and bad ones over the years. I have seen Jack Dejohnette in concert. Amazing drummer and pianist!

Back to the topic....I have not seen the movie however from reading some of the reviews it sounds like a movie that has been "done before" so it would really hold no interest for me regardless of the content.

I'm not sure there are any stories in modern film that haven't been done before. Every movie can be reduced to being some version of a biblical story, heroes journey, Shakespeare story, or very similar to a book or movie in the past. Doesn't take away from the execution and performances. If you are a movie fan you owe it to yourself to see JK Simmons in this movie.

Also I think following a drummer was obviously the best choice for the movie. It's the most physical, visual, and easiest to appreciate by non-musicians.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

I'm not sure there are any stories in modern film that haven't been done before. Every movie can be reduced to being some version of a biblical story, heroes journey, Shakespeare story, or very similar to a book or movie in the past. Doesn't take away from the execution and performances. If you are a movie fan you owe it to yourself to see JK Simmons in this movie.

Also I think following a drummer was obviously the best choice for the movie. It's the most physical, visual, and easiest to appreciate by non-musicians.

This is basically why I stopped watching fiction movies years ago. Same thing with TV situation comedies. I prefer non-fiction documentaries or biographies now.

[destinytot]

This is basically why I stopped watching fiction movies years ago. Same thing with TV situation comedies. I prefer non-fiction documentaries or biographies now.

It's also what I found so good about the film; the pace and performances stopped it from feeling formulaic.

[DRS]

I'm not sure there are any stories in modern film that haven't been done before. Every movie can be reduced to being some version of a biblical story, heroes journey, Shakespeare story, or very similar to a book or movie in the past. Doesn't take away from the execution and performances. If you are a movie fan you owe it to yourself to see JK Simmons in this movie.

Also I think following a drummer was obviously the best choice for the movie. It's the most physical, visual, and easiest to appreciate by non-musicians.

Exactly

This movie is the Journey of the Hero.

[grahambop]

I didn't realise Whiplash was a film about jazz. I assumed from the title it was something along the same lines as Fifty Shades of Grey.

[drbhrb]

I didn't realise Whiplash was a film about jazz. I assumed from the title it was something along the same lines as Fifty Shades of Grey.

Well, some might consider listening to jazz akin to S&M style torture.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

I just watched the movie. It was mildly entertaining. Yes, it's not about jazz or really about music. It could very well have been a sports movie with the abusive coach or an army movie with the abusive drill sergeant (Heartbreak Ridge comes to mind). Some parts were a little over the top. The romance part seemed pointless and didn't really go anywhere and I did find it kind of depressing. They do mention the Charlie Parker Jo Jones cymbal throwing incident but they don't really delve much into why it happened. Having read the "Bird Lives" biography I know well why Jo Jones became frustrated with the young Parker. It was because Bird could only play sax in one key and of course not the key the band was playing in at that time....anyhow...

The acting was fine but not excellent or riveting. I'd give it a 3 out of 5 rating.

[Hep To The Jive]

I just watched the movie. It was mildly entertaining. Yes, it's not about jazz or really about music. It could very well have been a sports movie with the abusive coach or an army movie with the abusive drill sergeant (Heartbreak Ridge comes to mind). Some parts were a little over the top. The romance part seemed pointless and didn't really go anywhere and I did find it kind of depressing. The acting was fine but not excellent or riveting. I'd give it a 3 out of 5 rating.

Wow, tough crowd... I thought the acting was more than excellent. At least by JK Simmons. Wether or not its about jazz depends on your perspective. For me in many ways it is. I went to music school and some of that expierince I can relate to.

[docbop]

Wow, tough crowd... I thought the acting was more than excellent. At least by JK Simmons. Wether or not its about jazz depends on your perspective. For me in many ways it is. I went to music school and some of that expierince I can relate to.

After attending a couple music schools and working in one for a number of year I relate to the teacher in movie, he is a mashup of multiple teachers. They were usually the best teachers to have, because if you saw you putting in the effort they were there for you. What's weird my high school had a Jazz band that produced many big names and pro's, the high school teacher was closest to being like the teacher in the Whiplash. After high school guys appreciated the preparation for the real world they got.

[pamosmusic]

The thing I find interesting about this whole "preparation for the real world" thing with respect to teachers being merciless sadists is that it's a little bit one-sided. I've played for some demanding people here and there but most were gracious as well. What the real tyrants seem to forget is that they have a captive audience for the tirades etc. In the actual real world there are certainly hundreds of thousands of players and you need to be ruthless with yourself or you'll lose the gig and there are definitely really insane band leaders out there that you need to be ready to handle but there's a flip side. There are dozens of big bands out there and hundreds of large combos and thousands of small combos. So leaders are in as much competition with each other as their musicians are with other musicians. World class bands have world class musicians and world class musicians have options. They won't take a gig with the guy who's a pretentious ass hole who throws things and has tantrums. They'll just politely decline and take one of the other three offers they had to play with badass musicians who are as gracious as they are talented. It's fine if you're Buddy Rich and you're an absolute monster talent that employs monster arrangers and knows how to get all the monster gigs. All due respect to the average high school tyrant yelling about the demands of the "real world" and then throwing a music stand ... they are probably no Buddy Rich and ... as such ... they wouldn't have musicians if they threw fits like that in rehearsals in the "real world"

[fumblefingers]

I don't think that the viewer was to take the band leader character in a positive light. He was the villain, basically. The antagonist, as was said.

[Vladan]

That's why they gave him two scenes, one "with a girl", other with "bad news", later developed in "CD from suicider" scene, to prepare us for kind of ambigous ending, as in "are they finaly on the same side, or one showed it to another?".