The End of Guitar Center

**AlsoRan** · 02-09-2015, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

They weren't any use the GC here some guy walked in grabbed a Les Paul Custom and started walking out. The check out girl confronted him, he just got in her face and said, "what are you going do???" scaring the crap out of the girl. Then just walked out got in a car and left.

Unmitigated gall!

Wow!

**Dave70** · 02-09-2015, 03:08 PM

Yep guess they had to recoup their $ for the Les Paul somehow.

**jasaco** · 02-09-2015, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

... some guy walked in grabbed a Les Paul Custom and started walking out. The check out girl confronted him, he just got in her face and said, "what are you going do???" scaring the crap out of the girl. Then just walked out got in a car and left.

Wow. I never realized that was an option...

**Doctor Jeff** · 02-09-2015, 03:21 PM

New of their demise seems premature. Not that one of my friends, who has had a guitar retail business in Chattanooga that has waxed and waned over 30 years, wasn't posting this article on Facebook in celebration.

FWIW I have bought several things from them. For instance, when I decided I wanted a Fishman amp I visited every store in Omaha, Dave's Guitars in La Crosse, and several local stores in Minneapolis before I bought it at GC in Omaha because they were the only place that had it.

But they carry very few archtops--just started carrying the Epi 175 premium, as well as the usual Ibanez offerings. Lidgett across the river is a licensed Heritage dealer, as well as Eastman, Collings and a ton of Fender stuff. That's where I got my Peerless.

When GC came to Omaha they drove one retailer out of business, but the remaining ones are healthy. They have a different focus and provide excellent customer service. IMO there will always be large retailers to provide products to the majority of buyers and smaller niche retailers to appeal to a small segment.

**Broyale** · 02-09-2015, 03:25 PM

I stopped going to GC when technology moved away from keyboards and drum machines to soft synths and midi controllers. Back in the day. I loved hanging out in the keyboards section, messing around on the keyboards, fondling all the MPC's. These days, its just the same two or three Roland synths that been there for years and a few midi controllers. Boring.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-09-2015, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by drbhrb

Also did you go back and change you post or something? Your post before was just the line I quoted so I'm little confused by this:

No. It's not my only post though. My point was that I've contributed to the conversation and been willing to talk about it.

I wasn't talking about YOU insinuating anything. Not about you... But a lot HAS been said in this thread about me, my presumed thoughts and opinions etc far beyond anything which I actually said...

**zigzag** · 02-09-2015, 08:49 PM

Well, I have mixed feelings about GC, but my experiences are only with one store. I had some bad experiences with a 335 that had a twisted and unstable neck, so I returned it (they do have a good return policy), and a month later found that same guitar back on the wall with the same price tag, waiting for the next unsuspecting buyer. I also feel like the salesman knew there were problems with the guitar and set it up to try to cover up the problem. He couldn't get me out the door fast enough. Salesmen make commissions and, IMO, will try to sell you higher priced products that you don't need (I guess that is the very definition of a salesman).

I have had much better experiences with smaller shops, and unless I want to try a guitar or amp I can't test any other way, I will not go back to another GC.

**fumblefingers** · 02-09-2015, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Ahh - I was the one that confessed I used to work at GC and hate them - I'll own that

oops, my mistake.

**pamosmusic** · 02-09-2015, 10:11 PM

Not a problem - at least not for me I don't suppose.

**fumblefingers** · 02-09-2015, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Never worked at guitar center. I worked at a smaller store.

As far as competition, I'd think there's less of it once guitar center establishes itself in a given city.

You're the only one who is really casting any moral distinctions, using terms like "evil" in the conversation.

Again, I can say it irritates me . That doesn't necessarily mean that anyone else has done anything wrong or that there's a solution to it. It's just a fact that there are fewer small stores than there used to be.

Bigger smarter faster . Okay , but we're both alluding to the same reality . Saying that things aren't the way they used to be or that you don't like a certain company as much doesn't equate to saying that you think they should be STOPPED or that they are an evil corporation.

If you want to have your imaginary conversation on the evils of capitalism with your imaginary ideologue who wants to take your freedoms or something, knock yourself out.

You can continue to snipe individual comments of mine and not answer my original question that I asked twice. Whatever.

But that's belligerent behavior, and I'm not going to continue talking as if it's a legitimate two-way conversation when you talk for me and don't respond to my comments. I'll just assume that you're trolling, not interested in real conversation, and I'll disregard your part of the conversation. Not really interested in satisfying your need to find a fight where there isn't one.

mmK.

"Are you implying that there are stores that ONLY sell niche JAZZ products , who therefore aren't affected by guitar center's market pressure? I think there is general concern that guitar center puts a lot of smaller shops out of business who might otherwise have things like arch tops"

1. no, i'm saying that - (a) there are other stores that sell a different mix of product, including higher end product, including fine archtops, (b) they have been doing it for a long time, and (c) GC is in their market location. now, do i have to drop names? i will, but do I have to? (hint, for a partial list see Gibson's "super dealers" and "5 star dealers")

2. so, you think that there is a "general concern", eh? what does that mean? I think that YOU are concerned. who else is concerned?

3. "GC puts a lot of smaller shops out of business". you see? this kind of pure conjecture is NOT worth responding to, and you wonder why I didn't respond to it. FYI - a past CEO of General Electric had a sign on his desk that read "In God We Trust, All Others Bring Data". You have NO data to back up the sh*t that you've thrown against the wall. (pardon my French).

I'm sorry but I don't have time to teach you microeconomics.

Perhaps a good homework assignment for you might be to do the following:

create a model for a small guitar store, and state your assumptions about:
- units sold per year
- all costs on the income statement (inventory, loan interest, rent for retail space, utilities, payroll, insurance, taxes, etc)

Show us how much money is on the bottom line. then tell us how you could sustain the business - if you could sustain it - and finally, why would you bother, assuming other economic opportunities were available?

to my earlier point, how do you make and sustain a going business concern in this market without substantial volume sales? my argument is that you don't, and you don't need GC to knock you out, you will be knocked out anyway.

and if you think that there aren't smaller, one store, volume dealers who do make a go of it - see my comments above. (OK, a few names - Music Zoo, Wildwood Guitars, Fuller's Vintage Guitar). i'm not saying it's easy either, i've been consistent on that point.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-10-2015, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

I'm sorry but I don't have time to teach you microeconomics.

Nice...

**pamosmusic** · 02-10-2015, 12:47 AM

Can I ask what you guys actually disagree on?

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-10-2015, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

mmK.

"Are you implying that there are stores that ONLY sell niche JAZZ products , who therefore aren't affected by guitar center's market pressure? I think there is general concern that guitar center puts a lot of smaller shops out of business who might otherwise have things like arch tops"

1. no, i'm saying that - (a) there are other stores that sell a different mix of product, including higher end product, including fine archtops, (b) they have been doing it for a long time, and (c) GC is in their market location. now, do i have to drop names? i will, but do I have to? (hint, for a partial list see Gibson's "super dealers" and "5 star dealers")

2. so, you think that there is a "general concern", eh? what does that mean? I think that YOU are concerned. who else is concerned?

3. "GC puts a lot of smaller shops out of business". you see? this kind of pure conjecture is NOT worth responding to, and you wonder why I didn't respond to it. FYI - a past CEO of General Electric had a sign on his desk that read "In God We Trust, All Others Bring Data". You have NO data to back up the sh*t that you've thrown against the wall. (pardon my French).

I'm sorry but I don't have time to teach you microeconomics.

Perhaps a good homework assignment for you might be to do the following:

create a model for a small guitar store, and state your assumptions about:
- units sold per year
- all costs on the income statement (inventory, loan interest, rent for retail space, utilities, payroll, insurance, taxes, etc)

Show us how much money is on the bottom line. then tell us how you could sustain the business - if you could sustain it - and finally, why would you bother, assuming other economic opportunities were available?

to my earlier point, how do you make and sustain a going business concern in this market without substantial volume sales? my argument is that you don't, and you don't need GC to knock you out, you will be knocked out anyway.

and if you think that there aren't smaller, one store, volume dealers who do make a go of it - see my comments above. (OK, a few names - Music Zoo, Wildwood Guitars, Fuller's Vintage Guitar). i'm not saying it's easy either, i've been consistent on that point.

Thanks for taking the time to condescend to answer my humble question . Your answer would've been a decent one as part of the original conversation .

I meant "general". It was part of a friendly Internet conversation on which you descended to snipe. I didn't understand that there was any assumption that all things said on the jazz guitar forum were based on scholarly research and data.

My comment was based on casual, anecdotal conversations with friends who have owned music stores or run them. It's my experience and my comment. That's really all that anything I post is. Especially on a casual thread like this. I think that if you had been sincerely interested you probably would've asked a decent follow-up question.

From my experience, shrill demands for "proof" and data are largely the talk of Internet trolls seeking to start fights and be belligerent. I can only assume that you're a more decent person than that, and that in every day life you don't treat people with the same disdain which comes across here.

With all your demands for data and scholarly evidence, you combine accusation , presumptions of other peoples beliefs and motivations. Far from being academic, this has the appearance of being petty and small, simply seeking to provoke....

Real conversation , especially that which would be deemed "academic" or debate worthy , involves two parties talking about the topic , the ideas, not assuming to know another person's motivations and beliefs, and putting them down personally. Follow-up questions are asked. Your questions are largely rhetorical and accusatory. They're not really "questions" which have any appearance of seeking an answer .

I hope that your Internet life makes your "real" life richer. God bless.

I'm done with this conversation.

**jasaco** · 02-10-2015, 01:13 AM

What a revolting development this is...
(Chester A. Riley)

**fumblefingers** · 02-10-2015, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Thanks for taking the time to condescend to answer my humble question . Your answer would've been a decent one as part of the original conversation .

I meant "general". It was part of a friendly Internet conversation on which you descended to snipe. I didn't understand that there was any assumption that all things said on the jazz guitar forum were based on scholarly research and data.

My comment was based on casual, anecdotal conversations with friends who have owned music stores or run them. It's my experience and my comment. That's really all that anything I post is. Especially on a casual thread like this. I think that if you had been sincerely interested you probably would've asked a decent follow-up question.

From my experience, shrill demands for "proof" and data are largely the talk of Internet trolls seeking to start fights and be belligerent. I can only assume that you're a more decent person than that, and that in every day life you don't treat people with the same disdain which comes across here.

With all your demands for data and scholarly evidence, you combine accusation , presumptions of other peoples beliefs and motivations. Far from being academic, this has the appearance of being petty and small, simply seeking to provoke....

Real conversation , especially that which would be deemed "academic" or debate worthy , involves two parties talking about the topic , the ideas, not assuming to know another person's motivations and beliefs, and putting them down personally. Follow-up questions are asked. Your questions are largely rhetorical and accusatory. They're not really "questions" which have any appearance of seeking an answer .

I hope that your Internet life makes your "real" life richer. God bless.

I'm done with this conversation.

BS.

Don't slam a company in public if you can't back it up with something other than personal opinion. and playing the victim doesn't excuse what you've said here.

pathetic.

**fumblefingers** · 02-10-2015, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Can I ask what you guys actually disagree on?

for one, he called it a monopoly. for the THIRD TIME - it is NOT a monopoly. Google the definition of monopoly if you need to.

for two, he looks at market competition as some kind of..... vice, or something.

so here's a sincere question -

let's say GC blows into town and replaces 10 low paying jobs at a small mom & pop store that sells affordable (i.e cheap) stuff, that is hanging on by a thread with 30 low paying jobs. but the 30 low paying jobs have better benefits, a career path for a select few, the ability to transfer to another city/store - and - the store has really great product selection for the local consumers, whether in store or available to order. (again we're only talking about small mom and pop stores that sell cheaper stuff, because we've already established that large volume independent stores can and do thrive in the same geographical marketplace as GC - stores like Wildwood, Fuller's Vintage, Music Zoo, others)

Further, the increased volume from the new GC store generates demand for more delivery drivers, and more volume for the musical equipment manufacturers. Net net, that's increased economic activity. The downside is that one proprietor loses his gig (again, assuming that he wasn't failing already).

now, do you see a real problem here? I certainly don't.

**LaVinci** · 02-11-2015, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

now, do you see a real problem here? I certainly don't.

Yes the real problem is...
GC's capital structure is inverted...
They need to be restructured yet again - think GM...

They destroy more capital then they produce.
The market (consumers) have rejected their big box business model...
They must turn it around with better leadership or go the way of other defunct retailers....

GC (as we know it) is a walking DEAD zombie, they just don't realize they are dead...

**fumblefingers** · 02-11-2015, 08:25 AM

might be true on the financials, they're privately held so I don't know. (GM didn't restructure, they were bailed out, but i agree that they should have restructured)

given that they are privately held, are we concerned with the wealth building of their owner or ownership group?

and consumers rejecting GC's business model? how do we deduce that?

and do you think that this "rejection" that you assert is related to the volume nature of the business, the in store experience, or something else? do you think a large store competitor could beat them at their own game?

**LaVinci** · 02-11-2015, 12:29 PM

right...
In the end, consumers (musicians in this case) that shop at GC is not enough to support GC operating model... they are destroying capital...
demands for GC products, services and convenience do not balance with their current market footprint... I say reject because not all musicians are fans of GC....
some are and some are not....
market share....
old growth.... verse new growth...
target audience
what is the average age of a GC customer?

**paco** · 02-18-2015, 07:21 PM

Another GC article.

**LaVinci** · 02-18-2015, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by paco

Another GC article.

Can you spell LIQUIDATION SALE
everything must go.....
Got your eye on a piece of gear at GC....
NOT AFRAID OF NOT HAVING A PLACE TO RETURN IT WHEN THEY CLOSE THEIR DOORS....
wait a few weeks and get the deal of a life time....
Fender going direct to consumer must have the bond holders, management , investors crying....
Hold oh boys...
And watch the proverbial fan...

**ckrahenbill** · 02-19-2015, 02:57 AM

I've been to the GC in Tucson. Very disappointed. Mostly crap hanging on the wall and the good stuff behind the counter way over priced. Seems they cater to mostly young kids. My son raved about the place but he also thinks Fender makes a great guitar. I prefer the non-chain guitar stores that strive to earn your business though I have seen some of those turn into warehouses full of crap after the second generation took them over. The Chicago Music Store in Tucson was a great place to shop and buy vintage guitars until the owner died and his son took the place over. The last good guitar I bought new was a Conti and that was in 2010. I check Craigslist for high end guitars and I have gotten some fine instruments doing so. I don't mind paying good money for finely crafted instruments but Guitar Center is not a place I would shop to find any.

Cliff