The End of Guitar Center

**pamosmusic** · 02-08-2015, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

so, GC:

doesn't stock many archtops (until recently, they didn't stock hardly any at all)
sells Gibson archtops now (which cheapskates love to hate on - and not buy)
doesn't sell Henrikson, Rivera, AI, Benedetto, etc., etc. amps
doesn't sell TI strings
doesn't sell Aebersold play a-longs
doesn't sell jazz books

so here's a question - why does anyone on this forum give a rip whether they thrive or fail to survive? and the same goes for their competitors. are you really concerned with where people buy their Tele, Les Paul, PRS, affordable model Fender amp, crummy strings?

why?

Well that's not entirely true ...

I got two of my three guitars at Guitar Center and some people like Gibson. True they don't sell Henrikson but they sell loads of Fender amps which are the tube amp brand of choice for lots of jazz guys. Some stores do sell TI strings but also not everyone uses TI strings and they do sell jazz books (not tons but they certainly sell some)

I used to work at Guitar Center in god damn Manhattan so no one hates that place more than me. BUT - it does have a massive market share so if it did go under it would be huge huge huge news and no one really knows what kind of effect it might have on other stores.

**fumblefingers** · 02-08-2015, 11:57 AM

1. The fact that GC sells Fender amps a plenty should make you very happy. You should love them for it. Need a Fender amp? Take a short drive and get whatever you want - fast - even if they have to ship it in.

2. If they were a monopoly other places wouldn't exist.

3. No, Mom and Pop stores would not be selling fine archtops. Archtops move too slowly and cost too much. Everybody needs to move the same kind of inventory to make it as a successful store, with some variation of course.

4. The economies of scale make it easier for Gibson and Fender to make more products available at competitive prices, and enables GC to do the same. That's good news for the consumer.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-08-2015, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

1. The fact that GC sells Fender amps a plenty should make you very happy. You should love them for it. Need a Fender amp? Take a short drive and get whatever you want - fast - even if they have to ship it in.

2. If they were a monopoly other places wouldn't exist.

3. No, Mom and Pop stores would not be selling fine archtops. Archtops move too slowly and cost too much. Everybody needs to move the same kind of inventory to make it as a successful store, with some variation of course.

4. The economies of scale make it easier for Gibson and Fender to make more products available at competitive prices, and enables GC to do the same. That's good news for the consumer.

Thank you. We now LOVE them because you said we should.

**jasaco** · 02-08-2015, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

4. The economies of scale make it easier for Gibson and Fender to make more products available at competitive prices, and enables GC to do the same. That's good news for the consumer.

Well, only for consumers who are looking for a mass-marketed Gibson or Fender... Let's don't be pollyannish...

**fumblefingers** · 02-08-2015, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by jasaco

Well, only for consumers who are looking for a mass-marketed Gibson or Fender... Let's don't be pollyannish...

well, not exactly.

they've had the Platinum Gear and Platinum Rooms for some time, and carry some stunning PRS private stock and custom Mesa Boogie amps - i bought one of each.

further, they have some L5s now, I bought a beautiful Legrand from them last year. i saw it online, it wasn't in my town, i merely asked about it and the next thing i knew it was waiting for me to check out - 2 days later, and with no obligations. that's pretty darned good.

but i hear ya. mass market stuff is their bread and butter - that was my point. they're not a jazz guitar place, so why should folks here give a rip? is this really about guitars or hate for corporations?

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-08-2015, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

but i hear ya. mass market stuff is their bread and butter - that was my point. they're not a jazz guitar place, so why should folks here give a rip? is this really about guitars or hate for corporations?

You're saying the same thing again without even acknowledging the previous response to it...but whatever.

What "jazz guitar place" are you talking about that is so jazz-centric, with no overlap in product, as to be immune from Guitar Center's market pressure? Most places that sell jazz gear sell other things as well, and they go away when Guitar Center comes to town.

Frankly, I'm not required to place any specific blame or come up with a solution to that problem in order to say that. It's just a fact.

What's your point? Are you saying that Guitar Center has zero effect on any stores which sell gear for jazz guitarists?

It's actually a stupid question. But that's the kind of provocative crap you're always pressing on people.

"What's this really all about?" Please... Maybe it's just a conversation.

**pamosmusic** · 02-08-2015, 11:35 PM

While I'll agree that the "why do guitar players care that Guitar Center might go under" question is a tad silly ... I'll also say that he has a point. There ARE jazz gear shops that make up one of a handful niche markets that some shops have been able to carve out to beat GC. Hear in NY for example Rudy's is mostly vintage and high end boutique guitars and Ludlow on the Lower East Side has almost twice the pedal selection of GC Manhattan(which is saying something). Guys like that manage to build a reputation as real experts in an area. That allows then to beat GC in spite of price or get exclusive dealer privileges (Ludlow and 30th street w Strymon recently) that gives them something tangible that guitar center doesn't have. Mr. Fingers I think is saying that jazz dudes are more likely to go to the specialty arch top store for a Benedetto than to GCfor a Mexican Tele in the first place. I don't necessarily agree but he makes a valid point

**pamosmusic** · 02-08-2015, 11:40 PM

As for why I don't like Guitar Center. Yes it's because of the corporate mentality they bring to the music industry.

They're the Fast Acting Never Jog Again Weight Loss supplement of the music world. Don't get a nice full sound? There's a pedal for that. Can't play fast enough? Get a new guitar. Can't play clean? That's cool ... check out these 200 distortion pedals ... no one will ever know!

For a while their slogan was "We sell the greatest feeling on Earth" ... Pbththththt <- that was a fart noise. Save your money and get a metronome and a damn lesson.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-09-2015, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

While I'll agree that the "why do guitar players care that Guitar Center might go under" question is a tad silly ... I'll also say that he has a point. There ARE jazz gear shops that make up one of a handful niche markets that some shops have been able to carve out to beat GC. Hear in NY for example Rudy's is mostly vintage and high end boutique guitars and Ludlow on the Lower East Side has almost twice the pedal selection of GC Manhattan(which is saying something). Guys like that manage to build a reputation as real experts in an area. That allows then to beat GC in spite of price or get exclusive dealer privileges (Ludlow and 30th street w Strymon recently) that gives them something tangible that guitar center doesn't have. Mr. Fingers I think is saying that jazz dudes are more likely to go to the specialty arch top store for a Benedetto than to GCfor a Mexican Tele in the first place. I don't necessarily agree but he makes a valid point

Ok, but are boutique shops in New York a case in point for what's happening across the country or an exception to the rule?

**pamosmusic** · 02-09-2015, 12:11 AM

I mean ... we're talking about exceptions to the rule here aren't we? Bluegrass guitar shop that sold high end acoustics and archtops back in my home-town. Online retailers that deal exclusively in archtops. Bass specialty stores. If the rule is that shops are run out by Guitar Center (I agree ... that's a rule) then these are all exceptions.

**pamosmusic** · 02-09-2015, 12:12 AM

Obviously I think it's perfectly reasonable for a guitar centric online forum to be particularly interested in the fate of the largest retailer of musical equipment - particularly guitars - in the world. I'm just saying. He has a point and I could possibly clarify it a bit for the sake of argument.

**fumblefingers** · 02-09-2015, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

You're saying the same thing again without even acknowledging the previous response to it...but whatever.

What "jazz guitar place" are you talking about that is so jazz-centric, with no overlap in product, as to be immune from Guitar Center's market pressure? Most places that sell jazz gear sell other things as well, and they go away when Guitar Center comes to town.

Frankly, I'm not required to place any specific blame or come up with a solution to that problem in order to say that. It's just a fact.

What's your point? Are you saying that Guitar Center has zero effect on any stores which sell gear for jazz guitarists?

It's actually a stupid question. But that's the kind of provocative crap you're always pressing on people.

"What's this really all about?" Please... Maybe it's just a conversation.

i would like to see you prove your "facts". you have no data and we both know it.

I've made my point quite clearly sir. What is your point? And what is this evil "market pressure" nonsense about anyway? Hint: It's called C-O-M-P-E-T-I-T-I-O-N, a fundamental principle in our capitalist system. Do you want a system with no competition, no "pressure", an even playing field where everybody gets their "fair share"? It sure sounds like it.

The truth is, it would appear that GC has been better-smarter-faster than their competitors. And if they falter? They will suffer. That's the way it works. The market decides who the winners and losers are. And I'll repeat - GC is NOT a monopoly. My city has a number of competitors, and yes its a tough market.

We know that people aren't looking for expensive guitars. Heck, this is a jazz guitar website and just look at the whining and bitching that occurs when the subject of L5s or other fine guitars comes up. Everybody wants a great guitar - they just don't want to pay for it! With a market like that, and with margins so small, how would you build your business model? I'll answer for you - with a volume based business model that's how. Have you ever considered that perhaps the market made GC as much or more than GC made the market?

Finally, you have disclosed that you used to work for GC and hate them. Well, you are a biased source. After reading all your sour and dour posts I can't imagine you being a very sales oriented person. Sales isn't for everyone, lol.

I worked in clubs and restaurants while in college. I would hate those jobs today. Does that mean I hate restaurants or bar & grill type places now? Nope. I eat/drink out all the time.

I think you need some perspective.

**fumblefingers** · 02-09-2015, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Obviously I think it's perfectly reasonable for a guitar centric online forum to be particularly interested in the fate of the largest retailer of musical equipment - particularly guitars - in the world. I'm just saying. He has a point and I could possibly clarify it a bit for the sake of argument.

thanks for being reasonable, 'preciate it.

another angle might be - how concerned are serious classical guitarists with GC? how concerned are serious classical pianists with GC? orchestral musicians? etc., etc.

**DanielleOM** · 02-09-2015, 09:40 AM

I am not sure if people are still doing it, but I remember years ago seeing people put significant amounts of money down when ordering instruments, or having large amounts of credit after returning an instrument. I also seen people bring expensive instruments in for repair to large big box retail stores.

Regardless of what you think of the chain, some assessment of financial risk is prudent when dealing with any retailer. I have seen too many musicians hurt when chains go out of business.

If all of the doors get locked, it can be very difficult getting your $$$ or instruments.

Danielle

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-09-2015, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

Finally, you have disclosed that you used to work for GC and hate them. Well, you are a biased source. After reading all your sour and dour posts I can't imagine you being a very sales oriented person. Sales isn't for everyone, lol.

Never worked at guitar center. I worked at a smaller store.

As far as competition, I'd think there's less of it once guitar center establishes itself in a given city.

You're the only one who is really casting any moral distinctions, using terms like "evil" in the conversation.

Again, I can say it irritates me . That doesn't necessarily mean that anyone else has done anything wrong or that there's a solution to it. It's just a fact that there are fewer small stores than there used to be.

Bigger smarter faster . Okay , but we're both alluding to the same reality . Saying that things aren't the way they used to be or that you don't like a certain company as much doesn't equate to saying that you think they should be STOPPED or that they are an evil corporation.

If you want to have your imaginary conversation on the evils of capitalism with your imaginary ideologue who wants to take your freedoms or something, knock yourself out.

You can continue to snipe individual comments of mine and not answer my original question that I asked twice. Whatever.

But that's belligerent behavior, and I'm not going to continue talking as if it's a legitimate two-way conversation when you talk for me and don't respond to my comments. I'll just assume that you're trolling, not interested in real conversation, and I'll disregard your part of the conversation. Not really interested in satisfying your need to find a fight where there isn't one.

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Are you implying that there are stores that ONLY sell niche JAZZ products , who therefore aren't affected by guitar center's market pressure? I think there is general concern that guitar center puts a lot of smaller shops out of business who might otherwise have things like arch tops.

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

You're saying the same thing again without even acknowledging the previous response to it...but whatever.

What "jazz guitar place" are you talking about that is so jazz-centric, with no overlap in product, as to be immune from Guitar Center's market pressure? Most places that sell jazz gear sell other things as well, and they go away when Guitar Center comes to town.

**pamosmusic** · 02-09-2015, 10:07 AM

Ahh - I was the one that confessed I used to work at GC and hate them - I'll own that

**drbhrb** · 02-09-2015, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Thank you. We now LOVE them because you said we should.

Good job ignoring most of his points in favor of a sarcastic comment.

I don't know where the impassioned hatred for GC comes from. No it's not a boutique in-store experience. No they don't sell niche items (why would a national chain that markets towards rock players stock henriksens?). They do fairly well selling to beginners, rockers, and lawyers/doctors looking to dump 4k on a les paul. For us jazz players it's a fine place to pick up used gear, cases, cables, pedals, Fender/Fishman/Roland amps, and other knick knacks. For archtops there are specialty stores, online dealers, and forum market places. Although I did get my Eastman used at GC....

**Flyin' Brian** · 02-09-2015, 11:27 AM

Like the previous poster, I've never understood the polarization caused by Guitar Center. It's a freakin' musical instrument store. It has established pretty much WHAT it sells and WHO they hire to sell it. Both tend to be limited, although you can get the better of either in a large city (surprise). Part of what seems to piss people off about GC is that they don't have a real wide range of products. Well you can't buy a new Honda at a Toyota dealer either. But nobody gets upset at that because there's no expectation. Anyone expecting to get a Jazzkat, a Sadowsky Jim Hall or a $25 set of TI strings at a GC ought to be more realistic. It's like expecting to see Carla Bley on the Billboard top 100.

I used to live close enough to both a local GC and a big city (Chicago) GC. I occasionally bought stuff at both places. I moved to Canada 6 years ago and haven't seen the inside of a GC since. My life has gone on.

This is a lot of pages for nothing substantive.

And now we've regressed to grade school and people are sniping at each other.

Brilliant.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-09-2015, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by drbhrb

Good job ignoring most of his points in favor of a sarcastic comment.

I don't know where the impassioned hatred for GC comes from. No it's not a boutique in-store experience. No they don't sell niche items (why would a national chain that markets towards rock players stock henriksens?). They do fairly well selling to beginners, rockers, and lawyers/doctors looking to dump 4k on a les paul. For us jazz players it's a fine place to pick up used gear, cases, cables, pedals, Fender/Fishman/Roland amps, and other knick knacks. For archtops there are specialty stores, online dealers, and forum market places. Although I did get my Eastman used at GC....

I don't have an impassioned hatred for guitar center and never said so. That was implied by him. I've never said that they are evil, that I've never shopped at there, or that I never would shop there again.

However, I'm personally not a huge fan of anyone presuming to tell me what I think or feel about something, nor about what I SHOULD actually think or feel.

My "outrageous" comment was that it IRRITATES me that, in addition to their brick-and-mortar presence, when you go online, many of the companies you order from there are owned by them as well. It "irritates" me in the same way that things in traffic may irritate . It's my personal feeling and opinion and not an accusation or political statement. Expressing an opinion is pretty different from implying that the government should step in or some such sentiment that I never expressed.

From this it was insinuated that I'm in anticapitalist, Corporation-hating whatever. I don't appreciate other people expressing my supposed feelings or thoughts. My above comment was just one part of the discussion.

If you don't feel like I've addressed the above points in this thread , I wonder that you've read it all. Maybe I'm missing something?

**jasaco** · 02-09-2015, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

... it IRRITATES me that, in addition to their brick-and-mortar presence, when you go online, many of the companies you order from there are owned by them as well. It irritates me the way things in traffic may irritate . That's pretty different from implying that the government should step in or some such sentiment that I never expressed.

From this it was insinuated that I'm in anticapitalist, Corporation-hating whatever.

Actually, monopolies are anti-capitalist, as they reduce competition that lets market forces find the natural prices of things. That's why we have anti-monopoly laws in this country (USA). IMO, it's perfectly appropriate to have a distaste for monopolies...

**drbhrb** · 02-09-2015, 11:55 AM

I dont think the poster who mentioned it being a place you should appreciate when looking for a Fender amp was specifically talking about you or ordering you to like them. I certainly was not only talking about you when I said "impassioned hatred". It's prevalent on this forum and others.

Also did you go back and change you post or something? Your post before was just the line I quoted so I'm little confused by this:

If you don't feel like I've addressed the above points in this thread , I wonder that you've read it all. Maybe I'm missing something?

I wasn't insinuating anything about you. This thread is about GC and not you after all.

Anyway sorry for any vitriol I may have added to this already contentious thread. I should know to stay away!

**Dave70** · 02-09-2015, 01:36 PM

I recently went to GC, noticed that they eliminated the 'door check' person. Guess they save a little $ on that trim.

They're still big on pushing the warantees, but I didn't have the sales person going for the add-on sales this time. (maybe he was new lol)

**jasaco** · 02-09-2015, 01:43 PM

I keep forgetting... am I supposed to hate Sam Ash too? It's so hard to keep track of all the people and things I need to hate... it'd be like a full-time job or somethin'...

**Flyin' Brian** · 02-09-2015, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by jasaco

I keep forgetting... am I supposed to hate Sam Ash too? It's so hard to keep track of all the people and things I need to hate... it'd be like a full-time job or somethin'...

Stellar!!!

We need more subjects for outrage! How the HELL can I prepare for winter if every snowflake is going to be unique? They ought to be more considerate of ME!

**docbop** · 02-09-2015, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Dave70

I recently went to GC, noticed that they eliminated the 'door check' person. Guess they save a little $ on that trim.

They're still big on pushing the warantees, but I didn't have the sales person going for the add-on sales this time. (maybe he was new lol)

They weren't any use the GC here some guy walked in grabbed a Les Paul Custom and started walking out. The check out girl confronted him, he just got in her face and said, "what are you going do???" scaring the crap out of the girl. Then just walked out got in a car and left.