Andy Edwards????

[mr. beaumont]

go and react to that one. the melisma is real, lol

I skipped to 12 different places in the video and he wasn't playing in any of them.

[AllanAllen]

Yeah. I mean they’re just like 4 licks that come in useful. It’s not that big a deal really.


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I think they’re named badly, or if the numbers relate to scale tones or chord changes it’s never explained that way.

Or, most likely, a lot of this Barry Harris stuff is too advanced for the people it attracts, like myself for example.

[Christian Miller]

I think they’re named badly, or if the numbers relate to scale tones or chord changes it’s never explained that way.

Or, most likely, a lot of this Barry Harris stuff is too advanced for the people it attracts, like myself for example.

It has been a while since I learned them, but I did learn them from Barry, and IIRC numbers refer to the degree after which the melodic pattern occurs:

[AllanAllen]

I don't get 2,10. 4 phrase doesn't start on C, 3 phrase doesn't start on B, and 2 phrase doesn't start on A.

See, the definition falls apart immediately. Or my understanding of the concept falls apart. I see the phrases contain the scale degree, but merely containing a note shouldn't define the line. That's pretty vague. Can I use any lick that has an A over G7 and call it a 5432 2 phrase?

[Christian Miller]

I don't get 2,10. 4 phrase doesn't start on C, 3 phrase doesn't start on B, and 2 phrase doesn't start on A.

See, the definition falls apart immediately. Or my understanding of the concept falls apart. I see the phrases contain the scale degree, but merely containing a note shouldn't define the line. That's pretty vague. Can I use any lick that has an A over G7 and call it a 5432 2 phrase?

The bit that isn't the scale starts on the number.

So you can slot it into a scale for instance. Say you have a descending dominant scale, you run it down to the 4th and play the 2-#2-3 afterward. Hence, 4 phrase.

I don't think you have to always practice them going down from the 5th each time.

[PMB]

Each one of the phrases in 2.9 is prefaced in 2.10 by descending scale notes from D (5) down to A (2) in the G major scale.

When improvising using that scale, these are simply possible points of departure. The phrases themselves are archetypal pivot and surround notes patterns.

Barry Harris would demonstrate how each of the phrases can be linked into one continuous line as described below (forgive me if you learnt it otherwise, Christian but I've usually seen the '2' phrase presented as containing a rising chromatic triplet:

[AllanAllen]

These explanations are only raising more questions about the basic concept.

Are these unique licks or a larger open concept?

What is, definitely the 5432 lick? It’s conceptually presented as a lick, which is a unique melody, i.e. the honeysuckle rose lick. But the more it’s explained the more complicated it is.

Major snake oil / guru vibes coming off this. That being said, I’m still willing to accept it’s going over my head.

[PMB]

These explanations are only raising more questions about the basic concept.

Are these unique licks or a larger open concept?

What is, definitely the 5432 lick? It’s conceptually presented as a lick, which is a unique melody, i.e. the honeysuckle rose lick. But the more it’s explained the more complicated it is.

Major snake oil / guru vibes coming off this. That being said, I’m still willing to accept it’s going over my head.

I suppose you could call the composite phrase "the lick" but I doubt Barry Harris ever described it that way for the same reason that he didn't like the phrase 'bebop scales'. It's really more a process, in this case of creating longer phrases via voice-leading. For me, Pat Metheny's statement that jazz is a verb rather than a noun is the operating principle here. One thing I like about Chris Park's videos is that he always takes an idea or line discussed by BH and says 'what if...' putting it into various contexts.

For instance, the composite phrase is often referred to incorrectly as 5-4-3-2-1. However, it could be extended to fit that description. Here's an extension using a '1' phrase I just came up with that turns the whole thing into a 2-bar loop:



As for Barry being a snake oil salesman/guru, he can't be wholly blamed for the rigid dogma and misunderstanding that certain followers display (these are most often people who never actually studied with Barry). I'm reminded of Karl Marx who supposedly said "If anything is certain, it is that I myself am not a Marxist" (“Ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas Marxiste”). The guy was the real deal - a fine pianist who played with Charlie Parker (albeit only once) and gave lessons to John Coltrane, Tommy Flanagan and Joe Henderson.

[AllanAllen]

I suppose you could call the combined phrase as "the lick" but I doubt Barry Harris ever called it that for the same reason that he didn't like the phrase 'bebop scales'. It's really more a process, in this case of creating longer phrases via voice-leading.

I see, I was thinking about it the wrong way. This helps, thank you.

As for Barry being a snake oil salesman/guru, he can't be wholly blamed for the rigid dogma and misunderstanding that certain followers display (these are most often people who never actually studied with Barry). I'm reminded of Karl Marx who supposedly said "If anything is certain, it is that I myself am not a Marxist" (“Ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas Marxiste”). The guy was the real deal - a fine pianist who played with Charlie Parker (albeit only once) and gave lessons to John Coltrane, Tommy Flanagan and Joe Henderson.

That's not what I meant, I have no doubt Barry knew what he was doing. I just kind of feel the sink or swim aspect of the workshops fails when it's transferred to youtube videos. You can't stay after class and ask the guy next to you, or maybe even Barry himself, what the heck just happened. So in that way, these ideas turn from solid examples, to vague concepts that you'll just have to subscribe to Open Studio to understand. Which irks me, but has nothing to do with Barry Harris and what he did.

There's another YouTuber, Mike Hayes, who explains this stuff in small bites that I can keep up with. I know there is powerful stuff in there, I'm just slow to grasp this stuff. I much prefer stealing lines from Parker heads and applying them anywhere I remember to. But that has it's own limitations.

[PMB]

I see, I was thinking about it the wrong way. This helps, thank you.



That's not what I meant, I have no doubt Barry knew what he was doing. I just kind of feel the sink or swim aspect of the workshops fails when it's transferred to youtube videos. You can't stay after class and ask the guy next to you, or maybe even Barry himself, what the heck just happened. So in that way, these ideas turn from solid examples, to vague concepts that you'll just have to subscribe to Open Studio to understand. Which irks me, but has nothing to do with Barry Harris and what he did.

There's another YouTuber, Mike Hayes, who explains this stuff in small bites that I can keep up with. I know there is powerful stuff in there, I'm just slow to grasp this stuff. I much prefer stealing lines from Parker heads and applying them anywhere I remember to. But that has its own limitations.

I get that Allen. I was lucky to sit in on Barry's classes in NY some years ago and have Isaac Raz point out a few things after Barry quickly ran through a trick or two. I also hang and play regularly with an organist who has gone extremely deep into that world. We went through Barry's DVD workshops together and that was a great help.

What's interesting about Barry's approach is the larger open concept you mentioned. There's an interesting chapter in David Berkman's The Jazz Harmony Book where talks about learning the basics of diminished harmony when he attended Barry's classes back in the '80s. He felt he had it all covered and soon moved on to other preoccupations but came back years later to discover the incredible harmonic potential he'd missed the first time around.

[Stevebol]

I hate Andy Edwards. I'm a hater.
I think he's pretty funny actually. Brit blather?

[Christian Miller]

Each one of the phrases in 2.9 is prefaced in 2.10 by descending scale notes from D (5) down to A (2) in the G major scale.

When improvising using that scale, these are simply possible points of departure. The phrases themselves are archetypal pivot and surround notes patterns.

Barry Harris would demonstrate how each of the phrases can be linked into one continuous line as described below (forgive me if you learnt it otherwise, Christian but I've usually seen the '2' phrase presented as containing a rising chromatic triplet:

This version of the two phrase is the one given for a dominant chord. Usually it’s a triplet on major and minor.


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[djg]

I skipped to 12 different places in the video and he wasn't playing in any of them.

i'd hesitate to call it playing, but at 11:40 he starts molesting the instrument.

[PMB]

This version of the two phrase is the one given for a dominant chord. Usually it’s a triplet on major and minor.


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Right you are. I know the dominant and minor variants but misread it as major.

[sgcim]

I hate Andy Edwards. I'm a hater.
I think he's pretty funny actually. Brit blather?

Yeah, he can be pretty funny.