What do we wanna tell pianists? (just for fun!)

[ragman1]

Or, of course, open your third eye, release your psychic abilities, and know what he's going to do before he does it. You'll never go wrong.

[Stringswinger]

When Barney and Herb played with Oscar, Barney and Herb both played 4 to the bar rhythm guitar. That worked well in the drummerless trio format that they played in. When Joe teamed up with Oscar it changed as Joe did not do the trad rhythm guitar thing. Somehow, they figured out a way to not get in each other's way (in an interview, Joe said he deferred to Oscar harmonically so I guess that explains it). Later, Oscar played with Ulf, but by then Oscar had survived a stroke and could not use his left hand so Ulf was left with a lot of room.

And if anyone reading this post wonders who all these cats I mentioned are, all I can say is this: What are you doing hanging out on a jazz forum?

[Strat-itis]

Ulf ain't nothin to sneeze at with his bluez'd out style.

[djg]

nothing. my amp speaks louder than words. or keys for that matter.

[lawson-stone]

Or, of course, open your third eye, release your psychic abilities, and know what he's going to do before he does it. You'll never go wrong.

What you just lightly mocked is what many experienced musicians call "musicianship."

I once spent a year playing every Thursday night in the rhythm section of a kind of open-mic session at a local restaurant. some nights it was literally just the 4 of us and the leader, who was a flute player and singer. But several nights we had a couple of saxes and a couple of trumpets. I had never played in a 'real' small jazz ensemble before, but I knew my chords and voicings, had listened a lot, and the pianist was great. The bassist gave me lessons basically on how to stay out of the way and still find a place to play in the mix. I learned a lot of intuitive stuff, a lot small ensemble etiquette, and found that listening to their advice was as important as listening to them play.

We actually ended up with a very fun and satisfying experience. the restaurant closed a year later, but not because of us!

I count that as the best year of my musical life.

[Uffe Steen]

I could add, that I love the sound of no chords. Just solist and bass and drums.
There is too little of that IMO

[Christian Miller]

Joe said he deferred to Oscar harmonically so I guess that explains it).

Playing with a force like Oscar, I can't imagine there was much choice in the matter haha.

[Christian Miller]

The situation where I am most likely to play with a piano is in a big band. Old school swing and pop tunes aside, I have come to dread the slashes of 'I have no idea what to write for the guitar'.

Sometimes I get a part, and it's really nice.

[mr. beaumont]

The situation where I am most likely to play with a piano is in a big band. Old school swing and pop tunes aside, I have come to dread the slashes of 'I have no idea what to write for the guitar'.

Sometimes I get a part, and it's really nice.

Big Band guitar charts be like "G7#5#9/Ab"

Cool, I'll play an F. Maybe a B with it.

[AllanAllen]

Along with the slashes don't forget quarter note chord inversions from the piano chart that are impossible to finger in context on guitar.

[AllanAllen]

Big Band guitar charts be like "G7#5#9/Ab"

Cool, I'll play an F. Maybe a B with it.

I've often wondered why they don't just write out the melody line they want us to play. It would be easier for me to learn how to sight read a melody line in real time, than decipher what I should actually be playing from overly complicated and also non-homogenized chord symbols.

[mr. beaumont]

I've often wondered why they don't just write out the melody line they want us to play. It would be easier for me to learn how to sight read a melody line in real time, than decipher what I should actually be playing from overly complicated and also non-homogenized chord symbols.

It's a very specific way of thinking. But yeah, a quarter note tenor melody and then I can play what else I want to support it, or not...that's cool.

Actually, what's cooler is the guitar gets to improvise it's accompaniment. I mean, that's the part I like best about jazz anyway.

[AllanAllen]

A big band is playing arrangements though. If the horn section, bass and piano are all playing thoughtfully written lines, the guitar should too.

Not just like, a collection of slashes and chord symbols. The current situation is a lose lose for the green guitarist and band.

[djg]

i remember many moons ago playing a stock big band chart, i think it was even some nestico, where the copyist has accidentally noted: rhythm guitar, freddie king style. i wish i'd have had the guts to do it...

[ragman1]

lightly mocked

Oh, I'd call it heavy sarcasm myself!

Maybe I'm too rigid but I think I have a deep-rooted objection to trying to collaborate with people who, on a whim, do things that no one expects. It causes accidents. I'd definitely call it bad musicianship and bad manners.

If we were approaching a ii-V-I cadence I wouldn't suddenly decide to sub the V with an altered tritone or backdoor just to show how cool I was. But there we are.

[AllanAllen]

Oh, I'd call it heavy sarcasm myself!

Maybe I'm too rigid but I think I have a deep-rooted objection to trying to collaborate with people who, on a whim, do things that no one expects. It causes accidents. I'd definitely call it bad musicianship and bad manners.

If we were approaching a ii-V-I cadence I wouldn't suddenly decide to sub the V with an altered tritone or backdoor just to show how cool I was. But there we are.

It all goes by so fast it doesn’t matter. If you do a Tritone sub and they play a regular dom7th it just ends up as an altered 7th. If you slide from Ab7 to G7 over a static G7 it’s just tension and release which is the reason you did the Ab7 anyway.

A lot of “theoretically incorrect” stuff just works live. And almost none of the minutia people argue over matters when you’re playing music. Time matters most, a sour note placed well is easily recoverable. A poorly placed note is harder to correct, not impossible, but harder to play off as something I meant to do.

[ragman1]

It all goes by so fast it doesn’t matter. If you do a Tritone sub and they play a regular dom7th it just ends up as an altered 7th. If you slide from Ab7 to G7 over a static G7 it’s just tension and release which is the reason you did the Ab7 anyway.

A lot of “theoretically incorrect” stuff just works live. And almost none of the minutia people argue over matters when you’re playing music. Time matters most, a sour note placed well is easily recoverable. A poorly placed note is harder to correct, not impossible, but harder to play off as something I meant to do.

I rarely do stuff that goes by so fast no one notices a serious harmonic car-crash :-)

But I know what you mean. On the other hand I'd say it was a slippery slope. You could get so used to clashing with other players that it became quite normal. But maybe not for an audience.

[ragman1]

Before anyone says anything (!) I know there will inevitably be momentary clams now and again. They don't matter. Have a listen to this album, it's peppered with them.

At least, I think they don't matter.

[sgcim]

Eff OFF! I only session with a bass player now.

[2bornot2bop]

Not altering the notes of the piano removes the fun of playing piano. We live in 2026 not 1926.

[MiniMerckx.22]

If your name is not Bill Evans or Lyle Mays, maybe try tenor sax, chess or baking gourmet bread at home.

[2bornot2bop]

If your name is not Bill Evans or Lyle Mays, maybe try tenor sax, chess or baking gourmet bread at home.

okay, you’ve not listened to any jazz piano players. BE was great, but he only scratches the surface.

[Christian Miller]

It all goes by so fast it doesn’t matter. If you do a Tritone sub and they play a regular dom7th it just ends up as an altered 7th. If you slide from Ab7 to G7 over a static G7 it’s just tension and release which is the reason you did the Ab7 anyway.

A lot of “theoretically incorrect” stuff just works live. And almost none of the minutia people argue over matters when you’re playing music. Time matters most, a sour note placed well is easily recoverable. A poorly placed note is harder to correct, not impossible, but harder to play off as something I meant to do.

Indeed ... Sometimes the sour notes are the best bit.

Group improvisation by its very nature is always going to lead to some clashes, that's been going on since the early days. I think those clashes are a unique aspect of jazz as opposed to classical music, where the harmony typically comes from the mind of a single person. A layered idea of music (relates to the rhythm too.)

So long as we know where we are headed and have our ears open it all comes good. As Steve Coleman puts it:

"....many times musicians use what I call Invisible Paths, meaning that they are not necessarily following the exact path of the composed or accepted harmonic structure for a particular composition, but instead following their own melodic and harmonic roads which functionally perform the same job. The musical description of that job is to form dynamic roads that lead to the same tonal and rhythmic destinations as the composed harmony. This differs slightly from the academic concept of chord substitutions, because these Invisible Paths can be entire alternate roads that are not necessarily related to the composed harmony on a point-by-point basis, and resist being explained as such, but nevertheless perform the same function of voice leading to the cadential points within the music. These paths may be rhythmic, melodic or harmonic in nature – all that is required are the same three elements that are required with a physical path – an origin, a path structure and a destination.

Many older musicians, especially the self-taught musicians with less training in European harmonic theory, have told me that the musicians of that time were primarily thinking in terms of very simple harmonic structures, mostly the four basic triads (major, minor, diminished, augmented) along with some form of dominant seventh chords. Although the harmonic structures were simple, the different ways in which they progressed and were combined were complex, again pointing to the idea that it was the movement of the musical sounds that most concerned these musicians. This is often overlooked by academics who are used to analyzing music by relying on the tool of notation, instead of realizing that music is first and foremost sound, and sound is always in motion. It was in the areas of rhythm and melody where most of the complexity was concentrated. Many of these musicians did not learn music from the standpoint of music notation, so they had a more dynamic concept of the music closely allied with how it sounded rather than how it looked on paper...."

THE DOZENS: STEVE COLEMAN ON CHARLIE PARKER (edited by Ted Panken & Steve Coleman) | Steve Coleman

[AllanAllen]

okay, you’ve not listened to any jazz piano players. BE was great, but he only scratches the surface.

Red Garland, Sonny Clark and Count Basie had it going on.

[MiniMerckx.22]

It's really the modern 88 key piano in general that I can live without. Bottom 12 notes sound like horse shit, top 12 notes sound worse, like bird shit, the rest, blah. The sound of a piano just leaves me cold and disappointed.