STOP Using iReal Pro For Jazz!

[kris]

[AllanAllen]

[mr. beaumont]

My answer has been the same for 20+ years.

If you know how to read a chart, stuff like this is an invaluable resource.

If you don't, it's a disaster.

[Hep To The Jive]

Patrick is the best sax player out there right now, and I always listening when he's talking, but the title of this video is misleading. It should be called Stop Misusing Ireal Pro!

The irealpro to me and everyone that i know is first and foremost chart READING app, not backing track practicing tool. That is just a bonus. Everytime I don't know a tune on the gig, or was just lazy to learn it, all I need is my phone with ireal pro and I'm good to go. For jazz and pop music! It's such a great app I don't know how would i do without it in many situations on gigs.

But Patrick is talking about using it as a play along practicing tool, and in that I agree with him, it kinda sucks. There are better out there for this, and it's a good call.

[Christian Miller]

The backing tracks are rubbish


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[Stevebol]

Jazz or not, I've been programming drums and percussion tracks for 35 years.

[RJVB]

Next who/what exactly?

Or ... n.extensions?

[Tal_175]

IRealPro is a great metronome substitute:
- Turn down the volume of all instruments except for the drums.
- Start from the last two bars of the tune as a count off (touch and hold over that bar, when "play" icon appears start).
- Improvise and comp (or self comp).
- Don't look at the app but occasionally check to see if you are where you think you are in the form (if you are not, feel deeply shameful and start over).

[Hep To The Jive]

Next who/what exactly?

Or ... n.extensions?

Who cares! She steals the show in this thread.

[Tal_175]

His views are very insightful. There is a difference between having an accurate sense of time and playing metronomically. However,
- Jamey Aebersold play alongs are also online and downloadable (with purchase).
- Hal Leonard play alongs are included in Hal Leonard real book digitally and recorded by great musicians.
- There are now programs that allow you to remove instruments from recordings so every legendary recording can become a play along.
- Every criticism he made about IRealPro can also be made about practicing with a metronome. This is a somewhat controversial topic in the music world although most would agree that practicing with a metronome (or a drum app including IRealPro) improves your time, but it doesn't teach you how to swing. These are different aspects how time manifests itself in someone's playing.

[pamosmusic]

- Every criticism he made about IRealPro can also be made about practicing with a metronome. This is a somewhat controversial topic in the music world although most would agree that practicing with a metronome (or a drum app including IRealPro) improves your time, but it doesn't teach you how to swing. These are different aspects how time manifests itself in someone's playing.

This I would disagree with.

The metronome gives you just the click … if you’re using it properly then it’s only giving you beats one and three or something like that. But at worst, just the downbeats.

iReal gives you all the time and all the subdivisions … it just gives you a stale, janky version of it.

Metronomes have their drawbacks, but practicing with iReal is definitely worse than practicing with a metronome

[Hep To The Jive]

The only aspect of ireal Patrick had an issue with is swing. But then again there is no perfect backing tracks tool to practice your swing feel. If you have a problem with swing no backing tracks in the world will help you. On the other hand if you do have a solid swing feel no backing tracks are gonna ruin it. Yes, Ireal is probably not the best in that regard, but then I just don't think it ever meant to be. That's not its main purpose. So stop hating on the app yo! It's fantastic for what it is.

[Reg]

Yea... I think Joey D also on Aebersold also had very live feeling tracks.

Love Patrick's playing... intonation ? But yea iReal .....is good for a memory aid basically. When your not playing 7 days a week etc... or are just getting old, and can't remember the tunes...LOL.

But the tracks generally are vanilla and suck. And are not even close to what rhythm section playing is about. And if you don't know the melody... etc... anyway not in a jazz direction.

The Phil Wilkinson tracks seem great... cool lead lines and harmonic development within the form.

[Christian Miller]

IRealPro is a great metronome substitute:
- Turn down the volume of all instruments except for the drums.
- Start from the last two bars of the tune as a count off (touch and hold over that bar, when "play" icon appears start).
- Improvise and comp (or self comp).
- Don't look at the app but occasionally check to see if you are where you think you are in the form (if you are not, feel deeply shameful and start over).

I wonder if you’ve been challenging yourself with your metronome practice.


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[John A.]

iReal is good for practicing in different keys (with the piano turned all the way down) and for building up to faster tempos. And even though the backing tracks are stiff and boring, sometimes they’re ok (e.g., better than nothing, as a change of pace, as a tool for initially learning a tune in a vanilla way). But if it’s all you use, and you don’t interact with other people, no bueno. But the same could be said for anything automated and repetitious.

[pamosmusic]

Yea... I think Joey D also on Aebersold also had very live feeling tracks.

Love Patrick's playing... intonation ? But yea iReal .....is good for a memory aid basically. When your not playing 7 days a week etc... or are just getting old, and can't remember the tunes...LOL.

But the tracks generally are vanilla and suck. And are not even close to what rhythm section playing is about. And if you don't know the melody... etc... anyway not in a jazz direction.

The Phil Wilkinson tracks seem great... cool lead lines and harmonic development within the form.

Yeah the Phil Wilkinson ones are kind of the gold standard now. I think Jack Z is using those quite a bit in his exercises?

But yeah …. It can make you forget how good some of the OG Aebersolds are!

[GuyBoden]

The Phil Wilkinson tracks seem great... cool lead lines and harmonic development within the form.

I have quite a few Phil Wilkinson PlayJazzTracks, they're great.

From here: Play Jazz Tracks

[Tal_175]

I wonder if you’ve been challenging yourself with your metronome practice.

I typically have it so it's one beat per bar. The beat is sometimes on one of the up beats. I also sometimes do one every three beats in 4/4 time. I should have clarified the word "substitute" a bit. I meant it more as a variation. But I don't think that has anything to do with the point of the video which is learning how masters swing from good play alongs recorded with an human time feel. Regardless of how you use the metronome his point stands.

[Tal_175]

This I would disagree with.

The metronome gives you just the click … if you’re using it properly then it’s only giving you beats one and three or something like that. But at worst, just the downbeats.

iReal gives you all the time and all the subdivisions … it just gives you a stale, janky version of it.

Metronomes have their drawbacks, but practicing with iReal is definitely worse than practicing with a metronome

That's a valid point but in my understanding the point of the video is that a metronome or IRealPro don't swing like Ron Carter.

[pamosmusic]

That's a valid point but in my understanding the point of the video is a metronome or IRealPro don't swing like Ron Carter.

I didn’t see the part where he mentioned the metronome.

But again … the metronome is a practice tool and, like most, it’s a crutch when used poorly but a real asset when used creatively.

For example … Two useful skills for swinging.

1. can you sit down with a quartet and swing in their pocket?

2. can you lead a quartet and drive the time yourself?

Metronome might not help with the first but it does with the second. iReal helps with neither.

[Tal_175]

I didn’t see the part where he mentioned the metronome.

But again … the metronome is a practice tool and, like most, it’s a crutch when used poorly but a real asset when used creatively.

For example … Two useful skills for swinging.

1. can you sit down with a quartet and swing in their pocket?

2. can you lead a quartet and drive the time yourself?

Metronome might not help with the first but it does with the second. iReal helps with neither.

I totally agree that metronome is a very useful tool. I use it all the time (a lot more than IRealPro). I think there are different ways of using IRealPro, some more useful than others.

Around 8:05 he says that IRealPro is a more dynamic metronome but that doesn't solve the issue of the lack of human feel.

[Hep To The Jive]

But the tracks generally are vanilla and suck. .

Well, you can re-harmonize those tracks any fancy way you want and it will play non vanilla changes, make it chocolate or creme brulee lol. The sucky part is the rhythm of it, it will always be stiff and fake yea, at least in swing style... Latin is actually not too bad. But at least you can write your own changes!

[Christian Miller]

I typically have it so it's one beat per bar. The beat is sometimes on one of the up beats. I also sometimes do one every three beats in 4/4 time. I should have clarified the word "substitute" a bit. I meant it more as a variation. But I don't think that has anything to do with the point of the video which is learning how masters swing from good play alongs recorded with an human time feel. Regardless of how you use the metronome his point stands.

I’m saying that it’s not a replacement for the metronome, I didn’t say anything re the video.


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[pamosmusic]

It also doesn’t sound like Patrick was really attempting to make much of a point about the metronome at all.

[Tal_175]

It also doesn’t sound like Patrick was really attempting to make much of a point about the metronome at all.

He explains his point from 7:55 onward for 30 seconds or so. He says that the criticism of Aebersold play alongs were that they weren't in time, the rhythm section would rush or drag. He believes people like IRealPro because it's accurate and acts like a dynamic metronome. But Patrick's point is that it lacks the human time feel that these rhythm sections had. My takeaway is that is the core point of his video. I think it is a fairly objective observation that this criticism also applies to metronome. Whether that makes metronome useless or if metronome is more or less useful than IRealPro is a separate discussion outside of the video content.