STOP Using iReal Pro For Jazz!

[Christian Miller]

This is a different thing, and I tend to agree that modern musicians are very click focussed - DAWs etc tend to encourage this.

In fact not everyone in the jazz community is actually in agreement that metronome practice is a good idea or necessary - it sounds like Patrick may be in that camp, or at least keen to point out the limitations.

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[Tal_175]

I’m saying that it’s not a replacement for the metronome, I didn’t say anything re the video.

Yeah, I mis-worded it. I shouldn't have said substitute. But it does have some useful applications for me.

[pamosmusic]

Not everyone in the jazz community is actually in agreement that metronome practice is a good idea or necessary - I have no idea where Patrick stands on the matter.


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Neither do we because he isn’t talking about it in the video.

He says that people who like iReal are prioritizing metronomic time over human time-feel. Which is true.

But he doesn’t actually apply any of his criticisms to practicing with a metronome.

It’s worth mentioning again that you can actually create good time feel when you’re playing against a metronome because it isn’t filling in the gaps. What does your eighth note feel like? Whatever you make it feel like. What does your quarter note feel like? Whatever you make it feel like.

When you’re using iReal, your eighth note feels like whatever the computer puts in the ride cymbal. The quarter note, whatever it puts in the bass.

He doesn’t talk about practicing with a metronome at all. He just talks about the importance of playing along with really good musicians with really good time feel

[Tal_175]

Neither do we because he isn’t talking about it in the video.

He says that people who like iReal are prioritizing metronomic time over human time-feel. Which is true.

But he doesn’t actually apply any of his criticisms to practicing with a metronome.

It’s worth mentioning again that you can actually create good time feel when you’re playing against a metronome because it isn’t filling in the gaps. What does your eighth note feel like? Whatever you make it feel like. What does your quarter note feel like? Whatever you make it feel like.

When you’re using iReal, your eighth note feels like whatever the computer puts in the ride cymbal. The quarter note, whatever it puts in the bass.

He doesn’t talk about practicing with a metronome at all. He just talks about the importance of playing along with really good musicians with really good time feel

I am not sure then why you are then talking about metronome. Is it because I said that the same criticism of the lack of human time-feel also applies to metronome? Is that false?

[Christian Miller]

Neither do we because he isn’t talking about it in the video.

He says that people who like iReal are prioritizing metronomic time over human time-feel. Which is true.

But he doesn’t actually apply any of his criticisms to practicing with a metronome.

It’s worth mentioning again that you can actually create good time feel when you’re playing against a metronome because it isn’t filling in the gaps. What does your eighth note feel like? Whatever you make it feel like. What does your quarter note feel like? Whatever you make it feel like.

When you’re using iReal, your eighth note feels like whatever the computer puts in the ride cymbal. The quarter note, whatever it puts in the bass.

He doesn’t talk about practicing with a metronome at all. He just talks about the importance of playing along with really good musicians with really good time feel

See my edited post above.

The common view in all these dissenting opinions is that everyone thinks you should play jazz with other humans, preferably ones who play better than you, so people should probably do that.

[pamosmusic]

I am not sure then why you are then talking about metronome. Is it because I said that the same criticism of the lack of human time-feel also applies to metronome? Is that false?

You said a few times that all his criticisms of ireal must also apply to the metronome and he repeatedly refers to ireal as playing with robots. I was saying that playing with a metronome is not the same thing as “playing along with robots.”

It’s playing along with no one, which forces you to create the time feel yourself.

[mr. beaumont]

I think dude in the video was pretty open minded about all of it...he pretty much says, yeah, playing with real humans is where it's at, but you might need to put in some work to even get to the point of where you CAN play with others.

It's just like the "learn by ear" advice. Yes, but it might be a little while before you can hear solo lines...

I think of time and ear training as "by any means necessary" propositions.

I also don't think anybody uses iReal because they like metronomic time. They use iReal because it's cheap, convenient, and a fast resource. Most of my iReal usage is along the likes of "How the hell does the bridge to that go again? Oh, here it is."

[pamosmusic]

See my edited post above.

The common view in all these dissenting opinions is that everyone thinks you should play jazz with other humans, preferably ones who play better than you, so people should probably do that.

Yes.

[Christian Miller]

Controversial, I know


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[Christian Miller]

You know I was thinking today how much language in music education is about telling people not to do things, instead of making positive suggestions - I think the dreaded algorithm also rewards ‘stop making this one rookie mistake’ style titles.

Here’s a suggestion i heard from a great player that I should follow - play along with records, it’s fun and a time honoured way to practice.

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[pamosmusic]

- Every criticism he made about IRealPro can also be made about practicing with a metronome.

Maybe?

[pamosmusic]

You know I was thinking today how much language in music education is about telling people not to do things, instead of making positive suggestions - I think the dreaded algorithm also rewards ‘stop making this one rookie mistake’ style titles.

Yeah … in general it’s easier to do too.

[Tal_175]

You said a few times that all his criticisms of ireal must also apply to the metronome and he repeatedly refers to ireal as playing with robots. I was saying that playing with a metronome is not the same thing as “playing along with robots.”

It’s playing along with no one, which forces you to create the time feel yourself.

It seems like we have different takeaways from the video. To me, he is pointing out a limitation of practicing with tools that display temporal perfection compared to practicing with rhythm sections (play alongs) that display human time feel despite being less accurate than automated tools. I think it's a fairly trivial observation that a metronome shares this limitation compared to a real rhythm section. That doesn't mean it's useless. It means those who practice regularly with a metronome aren't immune to the issues Patrick talks about in the video.

[pamosmusic]

It seems like we have different takeaways from the video. To me, he is pointing out a limitation of practicing with tools that display temporal perfection compared to practicing with rhythm sections (play alongs) that display human time feel despite being less accurate than automated tools. I think it's a fairly trivial observation that a metronome shares this limitation compared to a real rhythm section. That doesn't mean it's useless. It means those who practice regularly with a metronome aren't immune to the issues Patrick talks about in the video.

Right and I said that iReal was considerably worse and doesn’t have a lot of the benefits of a metronome, in that it isnt just the absence of good time feel, but the presence of bad time feel.

[Tal_175]

Right and I said that iReal was considerably worse and doesn’t have a lot of the benefits of a metronome, in that it isnt just the absence of good time feel, but the presence of bad time feel.

Sure, but that's a separate issue than the particular point raised in the video about play alongs with a human time feel. But again that's based on my takeaway. Your's might be different.

[Doctor Jeff]

My answer has been the same for 20+ years.

If you know how to read a chart, stuff like this is an invaluable resource.

If you don't, it's a disaster.

Attachment 119567

I see you've been using a different hair product lately.

And love the nails. Great for fingerpicking.

[John A.]

Right and I said that iReal was considerably worse and doesn’t have a lot of the benefits of a metronome, in that it isnt just the absence of good time feel, but the presence of bad time feel.

You can use iReal as a metronome. Just take any song, set the drums to "click", mix all the other instruments all the way down, and set the repeats to the maximum. That, or create a song with very long form and 1 chord to the bar (it won't allow empty bars) and the maximum number of repeats. You can set the click to 2 & 4, have beat one be a different sound from the rest of the measure, vary time signatures. So it does indeed have the benefits and deficits of a metronome.

[pamosmusic]

You can use iReal as a metronome. Just take any song, set the drums to "click", mix all the other instruments all the way down, and set the repeats to the maximum. That, or create a song with very long form and 1 chord to the bar (it won't allow empty bars) and the maximum number of repeats. You can set the click to 2 & 4, have beat one be a different sound from the rest of the measure, vary time signatures. So it does indeed have the benefits and deficits of a metronome.

He’s talking about using it as a backing track — which is what I was talking about

[pamosmusic]

For what it’s worth … and to echo Patrick Bartley … iReal is awesome. It’s on my phone. I keep all my set lists there. I send them to people via the app features. I put charts in for obscure tunes I like so I can communicate them to others. It’s an excellent app.

The accompaniments do not sound good.

[Hep To The Jive]

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Here’s a suggestion i heard from a great player that I should follow - play along with records, it’s fun and a time honoured way to practice.

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Yea, and Patrick is mentioning it there obviously, pointing out playing along with records how? Soloing all over the original solo? Comping all over the orginal comping? It makes sense to transcribe first and then play along trying note for note, and that's great, but not a sub for developing your own ideas IMO.

[kris]

I don't have Ireal Pro and probably never will.
I practice every day with Aebersold backing track and recently with Band in a Box /real tracks/ or nice backings from Youtube/great backing tracks with organs-you can see them in this video/.
Musicians I know prefer e.g. Aebersold's backing tracks.
I think that you should just practice with good backing tracks.
When I started my adventure with jazz music, it wasn't there at all.
Now it's all too much.
Best
Kris
ps.
This is all about playing the guitar better and better.

[kris]

Maybe this is a solution to the problem?

[pamosmusic]

Maybe this is a solution to the problem?

dig

[Hep To The Jive]

Maybe this is a solution to the problem?

There you go! A solution to the problem! (that never really existed to begin with but tsssss....) Now we can breath- we're not gonna lose our swing feel and ruin our lives.

[Christian Miller]

Yea, and Patrick is mentioning it there obviously, pointing out playing along with records how? Soloing all over the original solo? Comping all over the orginal comping? It makes sense to transcribe first and then play along trying note for note, and that's great, but not a sub for developing your own ideas IMO.

I actually think it also means just jamming with the record