how old are we

**pamosmusic** · 11-29-2024, 02:02 PM

I guess the question that always jumps to mind when conversations like this pop up is … if you think the younger generation doesn’t appreciate the music, then what have you done to remedy that?

Do we take their music seriously, such that they might take ours seriously in turn?

Do we teach them how to listen to it?

Do we help them understand why we think it’s interesting, and let them see our excitement when we listen to it?

Do we encourage them to play instruments so that they can make music they want to make, or so that they can make the music we think they should make?

I happen to be 34, for whatever that’s worth, but I kind of ask myself those questions fairly regularly. I don’t always like the answers I give myself, but it’s something.

**Stringswinger** · 11-29-2024, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

I transcribe a ton and practice several hours a day. 99.9% of 60-70 year olds don’t do that. Am I to conclude that my generation is saving it from those before who let the music die?

That would be a smidge self important, no?

I would bet that 99.9% of musicians of all ages (and all genres) do not practice several hours a day. Every player of a musical instrument has their own personal level of commitment. And their personal innate skill. Some musicians can practice several hours a day and still be terrible players and others can be great with minimal practice.

Years ago, when I was doing shows with Bruce Forman, he once told me that he was always angry with Joe Pass because Joe never practiced and he (Bruce) put a lot of time in the woodshed.

Jazz will continue into the future, but I doubt it will ever again be popular music as it was in the 1920's through the 1940's. Jazz is complex music and most people prefer much simpler music. Classical music was the music of the elites in Europe back when Bach, Beethoven and friends wrote their music. The common people were mostly listening to simple folk music, not unlike the common people of today. A lot of jazz fans and jazz musicians get a bit snooty about jazz (as do many classical musicians and fans).

Older people always look at the newer generations with a bit of disappointment. But like it or not, it as Thomas Jefferson once opined "the Earth belongs to the living in usufruct". The baton must be passed. And really, Jazz, in the big picture of things, may not be that important. But I suspect that in the future when America is gone (all empires fade away), Jazz will somehow remain. And jazz guitarists will still lust for an L-5 because Wes played one.

**joe2758** · 11-29-2024, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Years ago, when I was doing shows with Bruce Forman

Cool! When was that? was it a duo?

**pamosmusic** · 11-29-2024, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

I would bet that 99.9% of musicians of all ages (and all genres) do not practice several hours a day. Every player of a musical instrument has their own personal level of commitment. And their personal innate skill. Some musicians can practice several hours a day and still be terrible players and others can be great with minimal practice.

Years ago, when I was doing shows with Bruce Forman, he once told me that he was always angry with Joe Pass because Joe never practiced and he (Bruce) put a lot of time in the woodshed.

Jazz will continue into the future, but I doubt it will ever again be popular music as it was in the 1920's through the 1940's. Jazz is complex music and most people prefer much simpler music. Classical music was the music of the elites in Europe back when Bach, Beethoven and friends wrote their music. The common people were mostly listening to simple folk music, not unlike the common people of today. A lot of jazz fans and jazz musicians get a bit snooty about jazz (as do many classical musicians and fans).

Older people always look at the newer generations with a bit of disappointment. But like it or not, it as Thomas Jefferson once opined "the Earth belongs to the living in usufruct". The baton must be passed. And really, Jazz, in the big picture of things, may not be that important. But I suspect that in the future when America is gone (all empires fade away), Jazz will somehow remain. And jazz guitarists will still lust for an L-5 because Wes played one.

Yeah I’d more or less agree with all this.

Except maybe the bit about jazz being complex. It’s complex to play in a lot of ways, but I’m not sure it’s complex to listen to. Obviously different musicians are different. Coltrane is a heavy listen, but Louis or Basie are totally easy to appreciate if you know what you’re listening for. And that’s a role that a person who knows the music can fill. Or they can complain that no one appreciates jazz.

My wife and I were at a regional music ed conference recently and there were a bunch of band directors who were having crises of enrollment or were struggling to get programs back to life after COVID. And to be clear I want allllll the money for music ed, but there was this younger music teacher giving a talk and she had this massive music program that was inclusive of kids with all sorts of learning obstacles and she aced assessments and all that good stuff. And she was basically arguing that old school band directors have made their own problem by insisting that they’re important because they’re bringing music to kids, but insisting that the kids’ music look one specific way. And with that framing, it’s not really any surprise that some programs really struggle.

and I think that’s a useful analogy for the way jazz works.

I had a bunch of jam band nerd buddies show up to a Julian Lage show I went to recently and they LOVED it.

Jahari Stampley is huge with younger musicians.

Robert Glasper and Ben Williams have massive crossover appeal.

And then there’s Laufey and people like that.

Anyway. I don’t know that I care what they make looks like as long as it’s thoughtful and they appreciate and understand the breadth of ingredients they have to cook with.

Sometimes I think stodgy jazz nerds like me have a harder time appreciating that breadth than the 17 yos I teach.

**Stringswinger** · 11-29-2024, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

Cool! When was that? was it a duo?

2007. We worked as a quartet. I have a 5 tune CD of Bruce and I playing together with a bass and rhythm guitar (we used the CD to get gigs). If anyone here wants one of those CD's, PM me and I will send you one if you cover the cost of mailing.

**RLetson** · 11-29-2024, 02:51 PM

On the subtopic of jazz-as-popular and the extended/implied question of "what do you mean, 'popular' music?": I'm old enough to have witnessed the moving center of popular music (as heard on the radio and on TV) from "Doggie in the Window" and "Come-on a My House" through R&B/early rock and doo-wop to "Canadian Sunset" to the Beatles and what followed.

Just for fun, I looked at the Wikipedia entries for the Billboard hit singles between 1958 and 1962, the years I started and finished high school, and recognized almost every one of them. The closest things to jazz were some backward-looking items from the big-band/swing tradition (e.g., Bert Kampfert's "Swingin' Safari," the Dorsey band's "Tea for Two Cha Cha Cha," Bobby Darin's "Mack the Knife" and "Beyond the Sea"). And, of course, "Take Five" and "Swinging Shepherd Blues" and Mancini's Peter Gunn theme.

But by '58, radio pop had been almost entirely taken over by what my cohort liked to hear, which was teen-friendly dance music and love songs and novelty tunes. But jazz was already threaded through the musical vocabulary of much of the material that wasn't just Brill-Building teen product--some TV themes (M-Squad, Peter Gunn, Mister Lucky), some movie music, Ray Charles. Straight-ahead jazz was for grownups and hip college kids, out at the edges of the pop demographic. Because jazz-as-jazz was never "popular"--it was an ingredient in dance music and vocal accompaniment, and when social dancing styles moved on, R&B and rock & roll became the central styles. (I lived through some of those changes as well--by the time I graduated from college, nearly no high-school kids could do ballroom-style dancing any more. And from what I've seen at swing camps, they still can't.)

**deacon Mark** · 11-29-2024, 03:46 PM

How long one plays and how much practice they do is always a tricky question. Wes died at 44 years old. Think of the number of great guitar players who have live and played for 50-60 even 70 plus years. Wes played as good as any player around in jazz yet he probably spent less time playing than many. I am not putting down hard work and practice, but talent is talent. Natural gifts are things we do quite well with little thought because of the very nature of the gift. It is most seen in sports but easily works in music and instrument playing.

I give you the prime example. I was/am a long-distance runner. My running long goes back to Summer of 1986. I have logged 85,000 miles of running in my life. At no point was I ever fast by any standard. The fasted 10k I ever ran was 38 minutes only once when I was 30 years old. That is very, very slow by any real competitive standard. Hitting a baseball I think is probably another example. It takes me hours of practicing a tune to get it down go over to memorize and play. I spend probably way more time at it than real gift person who simply hears the tune and after a couple of choruses playing it they have it down. Hard work and practice is great but a gift to play just makes it less frustrating I think.

**bediles** · 11-29-2024, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Yeah I’d more or less agree with all this.

Except maybe the bit about jazz being complex. It’s complex to play in a lot of ways, but I’m not sure it’s complex to listen to. Obviously different musicians are different. Coltrane is a heavy listen, but Louis or Basie are totally easy to appreciate if you know what you’re listening for. And that’s a role that a person who knows the music can fill. Or they can complain that no one appreciates jazz.

My wife and I were at a regional music ed conference recently and there were a bunch of band directors who were having crises of enrollment or were struggling to get programs back to life after COVID. And to be clear I want allllll the money for music ed, but there was this younger music teacher giving a talk and she had this massive music program that was inclusive of kids with all sorts of learning obstacles and she aced assessments and all that good stuff. And she was basically arguing that old school band directors have made their own problem by insisting that they’re important because they’re bringing music to kids, but insisting that the kids’ music look one specific way. And with that framing, it’s not really any surprise that some programs really struggle.

and I think that’s a useful analogy for the way jazz works.

I had a bunch of jam band nerd buddies show up to a Julian Lage show I went to recently and they LOVED it.

Jahari Stampley is huge with younger musicians.

Robert Glasper and Ben Williams have massive crossover appeal.

And then there’s Laufey and people like that.

Anyway. I don’t know that I care what they make looks like as long as it’s thoughtful and they appreciate and understand the breadth of ingredients they have to cook with.

Sometimes I think stodgy jazz nerds like me have a harder time appreciating that breadth than the 17 yos I teach.

The Julian Lage crowds in Toronto are a real cross section of music school kids, jam band dead heads and indie rock fans. I've never heard that kind of cheering for Ornette tunes. Makes me smile.

**bediles** · 11-29-2024, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Jazz has not been popular music since the 1940's. That is a long time ago. When I got turned on to jazz in the 1970's, there were not many members of my generation into it. That hasn't changed with the generations that have come along since, and probably never will.

If I was a young person needing to make a living, playing jazz would not be my preferred way to do it. A dental hygienist makes a way better living. In fact almost everybody, including fast food workers do as well.

Jazz and especially Jazz guitar is a music career on hard mode. Most do all sorts of other music and music adjacent work to support the Jazz habit or day jobs. There's an honour in that IMO to dedicate yourself to a craft. I kind of get tired of the, "thank God I'm an engineer" opinions of some folks here, kind of insulting of the folks that actually do it.

One friend of mine is pretty 'jazz famous' (not a guitar player) and was on live at emmets place recently and I know Jocelyn Gould left head of guitar at Humber (Canada's Berklee) bc her touring schedule was too much to do both. So it can be done, I guess.

but yeah, Jazz guitar performance as a proffession certainly has a diminishing market but there's always money in the banana stand if you do it long enough and sculpt a multifaceted carrier.

**pamosmusic** · 11-29-2024, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by bediles

Jazz and especially Jazz guitar is a music career on hard mode. Most do all sorts of other music and music adjacent work to support the Jazz habit or day jobs. There's an honour in that IMO to dedicate yourself to a craft. I kind of get tired of the, "thank God I'm an engineer" opinions of some folks here, kind of insulting of the folks that actually do it.

One friend of mine is pretty 'jazz famous' (not a guitar player) and was on live at emmets place recently and I know Jocelyn Gould left head of guitar at Humber (Canada's Berklee) bc her touring schedule was too much to do both. So it can be done, I guess.

but yeah, Jazz guitar performance as a proffession certainly has a diminishing market but there's always money in the banana stand if you do it long enough and sculpt a multifaceted carrier.

+1

**pamosmusic** · 11-29-2024, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by HiFi Mule2Ride

maybe video game soundtracks are the new blues and jazz. The possibilities are endless.

**wolflen** · 11-29-2024, 07:18 PM

well..lets see..

when I went to school..history wasn't a subject yet..

but I did attend a conference about this new thing they were trying to invent called "dirt"..I said " it'll never work"

these days are strange indeed..I tried a new dating service for my age group..carbon dating..I asked a woman for her number..she said 85 over 130

Just remember..your as pretty and old as you feel

most of the above came for old comic..hope it made a few smiles

**AS193** · 11-29-2024, 07:45 PM

69 last August.

**beetlejockey** · 11-30-2024, 09:03 AM

19 here and all the great advice on the forum makes sense now! Hope I'm as insightful as all of you guys when I'm a little older

**pamosmusic** · 11-30-2024, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by beetlejockey

19 here and all the great advice on the forum makes sense now! Hope I'm as insightful as all of you guys when I'm a little older

Nice!

I started on here (under a different screen name, I since lost) when I was 17.

A lot of nonsense over the last few years but some great stuff that really stuck too.

**Mick-7** · 11-30-2024, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Years ago, when I was doing shows with Bruce Forman, he once told me that he was always angry with Joe Pass because Joe never practiced and he (Bruce) put a lot of time in the woodshed.

Joe played a lot, once you reach a certain level of excellence, playing is your practice time.

**joe2758** · 11-30-2024, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by bediles

Jazz and especially Jazz guitar is a music career on hard mode. Most do all sorts of other music and music adjacent work to support the Jazz habit or day jobs. There's an honour in that IMO to dedicate yourself to a craft. I kind of get tired of the, "thank God I'm an engineer" opinions of some folks here, kind of insulting of the folks that actually

haha! yeah thank god i'm an xray tech. i get sick of all the music-playing wanna be xray techs. I call them bedroom xray techs. lol

**Stringswinger** · 11-30-2024, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Mick-7

Joe played a lot, once you reach a certain level of excellence, playing is your practice time.

No doubt. I think Bruce thought that Joe had such an incredible gift that with some woodshedding, Joe could have accomplished even more.

I once talked to Joe's brother about Joe. I was told that their father, who was a Sicilian immigrant coal miner, wanted his children to do well and pushed his children if they showed an interest in something. I was told that when Joe showed an interest in guitar, Joe was not allowed to go out and play, as he had to practice for hours (and then perform for his father's friends). Perhaps that made Joe the amazing player he was? Perhaps Joe felt that he had already put in the time in his youth and did not need to practice later in life?

Needless to say, Bruce felt that Joe should have done more. And I will say this: when it comes to jazz guitar, nobody has done more than Bruce Forman. He is a force of nature when it comes to jazz guitar. I have performed with some great jazz guitarists (Larry Coryell, Howard Alden, Mimi Fox, Bruce Forman and others). Bruce is the best of them (Larry was a close second).