Cm7b5, or C/o7?

[Woody Sound]

Which do you write? Minor7flat5, or half dim7? And more importantly, why?

[Christian Miller]

I tend to write m7b5 because that's supposedly the standard now (because of Berklee). I do find 'half diminished' MUCH easier to say. And I like the little theta sign. Concise.

[Woody Sound]

How about Maj7, M7, or /\7?

[wolflen]

mi7b5.....never liked the term half-dim..too ambiguous

Far more defined..in function and construction and location in major/minor keys..
easier to invert and translate to its synonyms-Dom9, mi6, dom7#5b9

Its bass and soprano voices are easier to locate for voice leading/melodic construction

[pingu]

Dm7b5

[rpjazzguitar]

I once heard Reg Schwager call it "split" as in Esplit for Em7b5.

I write m7b5. I think it's optically clearer than trying to see that slash mark in the little circle.

I say "minor 7 flat 5" rather than "half diminished". Probably because I learned the former first.

[Woody Sound]

I tend to write m7b5 because that's supposedly the standard now (because of Berklee). I do find 'half diminished' MUCH easier to say. And I like the little theta sign. Concise.

As do I. I seem to have a quicker reflex to it when sight reading.

[Mick-7]

mi7b5..... never liked the term half-dim..too ambiguous.

Yes, I think that's why Randy Newman decided not to use it in his song, "Don't want no half-diminished people 'round here!"

[Bob_Ross]

I tend to write m7b5 because that's supposedly the standard now (because of Berklee).

I didnt realize it was the standard because of Berklee, but yeah, at Berklee they were pretty adamant that the proper way to refer to that chord is "Minor Seventh Flat Five"...although they prefered it notated -7b5 rather than m7b5. Since I had learned all my pre-Berklee jazz theory from a Berklee grad, I was already accustomed to that terminology. Pretty sure the use of - to indicate minor was to eliminate any confusion between an upper- and lower-case M.

fwiw, at Berklee they were also pretty adamant that major seventh chords should be written Maj7 ...not M7 or [triangle symbol]7. Their reasoning being, it's very easy to confuse an upper-case M or a triangle with something else, especially when it's a hand-written chart. I suspect that may have been at least part of the reason they objected to the "half diminished" nomenclature: In addition to the term being theoretically ambiguous, that little circle with the slash through it could be near illegible if hastily written by a sloppy copyist.

[Oddly though, they didn't seem to have a problem with °7 for (fully) diminished chords. One could argue that the little circle is just as likely to be misread as an upper- (or lower-)case M or a triangle...yet I never heard anyone there advocating for dim7 as the standard way to indicate a diminished seventh chord. :::shrugs::: ]

[Woody Sound]

I once heard Reg Schwager call it "split" as in Esplit for Em7b5.

Interesting, never heard that one.

[Christian Miller]

I didnt realize it was the standard because of Berklee, but yeah, at Berklee they were pretty adamant that the proper way to refer to that chord is "Minor Seventh Flat Five"...although they prefered it notated -7b5 rather than m7b5. Since I had learned all my pre-Berklee jazz theory from a Berklee grad, I was already accustomed to that terminology. Pretty sure the use of - to indicate minor was to eliminate any confusion between an upper- and lower-case M.

fwiw, at Berklee they were also pretty adamant that major seventh chords should be written Maj7 ...not M7 or [triangle symbol]7. Their reasoning being, it's very easy to confuse an upper-case M or a triangle with something else, especially when it's a hand-written chart. I suspect that may have been at least part of the reason they objected to the "half diminished" nomenclature: In addition to the term being theoretically ambiguous, that little circle with the slash through it could be near illegible if hastily written by a sloppy copyist.

[Oddly though, they didn't seem to have a problem with °7 for (fully) diminished chords. One could argue that the little circle is just as likely to be misread as an upper- (or lower-)case M or a triangle...yet I never heard anyone there advocating for dim7 as the standard way to indicate a diminished seventh chord. :::shrugs::: ]

Tbh I’ve not gone into the research of whether it was Berklee that originated this but it seems likely.

The musicians I learned from when I was getting it together usually called it a half diminished chord.

It’s good to know the music schools are exercised over such important stuff haha.

I mean some of it is useful - and I can see why they teach it. When I learn of these conventions I try to adopt them.

I do also think it’s worthwhile to have a standardised system of chord notation but it doesn’t necessarily prepare you for older charts that aren’t standardised.

There’s a lot that I think could be improved with the mainstream terminology but I’m aware that I probably end up coming across as a nutcase that wants to decimalise time or some such.

Elsewhere in the world of pointless musical debating - is the IV6 chord an inversion of the II-7 of vice versa? Apparently Barry Harris had a debate with some classical theorists over this and I believe eventually he came over to their side.

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[ragman1]

These days I write it m7b5 because the forum doesn't support the ø sign.

[Christian Miller]

These days I write it m7b5 because the forum doesn't support the ø sign.

And yet, there it is!

[wolflen]

Elsewhere in the world of pointless musical debating

Careful now Christian..many on THIS forum may take offense..

In other news...is the Emi half dim considered a min or a dim chord..and if dim..which half?

[rpjazzguitar]

Since I like Em7b5 rather than E half diminished, I also like Em6b5 rather than E diminished 7.

That way, the chord name specifies root, b3, b5 and a note that's easy to think of as a 6.

Of course, I don't use it because I don't want complaints. But, I thought I'd mention it, since it makes sense to me.

[Mick-7]

I also like Em6b5 rather than E diminished 7.

The problem with it is that Em6b5 = Gm6b5, Bbm6b5 and C#m6b5, so it's function will be less clear than Eo7. Of course, Eo7 = Go7, Bbo7 and C#o7, but most people are aware of dim. chords symmetrical nature.

In other news...is the Emi half dim considered a min or a dim chord..and if dim..which half?

Unlike the aforementioned dim.7th chord, the half-dim.7th usually functions as a minor (7th) chord.

[Woody Sound]

I didn’t mean to start this as a theory discussion, more from a composition or “notation” point of view for the intended reader of the music.

[ragman1]

And yet, there it is!

Damn, far too quick :-)

Miller and Woody Sound can sit in the front row and are excused games.

Correct. It's our keyboards that don't have it, nor do the Belgian AZERTY ones. Danish keyboards do but ours don't.

But strangely we can post the half-dim sign but not the delta M7 sign because the forum's font won't accept it. I don't know what libraries the forum uses.

(I got my ø from Images and keep it handy. But it's still quicker to type m7b5)

[ragman1]

Woody - when handwriting I use ø. If I can remember how to do handwriting these days...

Here's a bit of paper on my desk with the chords to Insensatez in A minor on it from the other day. As it came out.

[Christian Miller]

Careful now Christian..many on THIS forum may take offense..

In other news...is the Emi half dim considered a min or a dim chord..and if dim..which half?

Is Tuesday the day after Monday or the day before Wednesday?


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[kris]

This is from Aebersold's scale sylabus :

[Christian Miller]

This is from Aebersold's scale sylabus :

Ah yeah, all Aebersold stuff uses the Theta iirc? That’s probably where I learned it from


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[garybaldy]

I thought beboppers called it min6

[pamosmusic]

Ah yeah, all Aebersold stuff uses the Theta iirc? That’s probably where I learned it from


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It's also just neater when you're writing and easier to say.

Finale doesn't include it as a standard chord symbol though, so that's a whole 25 years of arrangers where it's much easier to write m7b5. Probably ragman's answer there of it just being weird to type so the programmers didn't bother with it in like ... 1999 or whenever.

[Christian Miller]

It's also just neater when you're writing and easier to say.

Finale doesn't include it as a standard chord symbol though, so that's a whole 25 years of arrangers where it's much easier to write m7b5. Probably ragman's answer there of it just being weird to type so the programmers didn't bother with it in like ... 1999 or whenever.

The days before Unicode

Were they writing out scores on a Vax minicomputers or something?

What’s that command line music program all the engravers like? Like the music version of LaTeX?

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