Cm7b5, or C/o7?

[ragman1]

I guess they're called dominant sevenths because of their behavior..

The way I understood it was that, in jazz, dominant 7 chords are so-called to distinguish them from other chords with a 7 in the name, like maj7, min7, etc. But normally we just say dominant, not dominant 7.

How they behave, however, is something else :-)

[Jonah]

The way I understood it was that, in jazz, dominant 7 chords are so-called to distinguish them from other chords with a 7 in the name, like maj7, min7, etc. But normally we just say dominant, not dominant 7.

How they behave, however, is something else :-)

well… all things have different names to be distinguished them from the other things

how they are called is often after their’behaviour ‘)))

[Jonah]

Haven’t heard anyone say 6 5 yet.

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what do they say in that case?

when I was in classical school these terms were more like fixed name for chords inversions I think under conception of Romantic harmony the fact they were basically general bass was somehow unnoticed

Also ‘sextakkord’ is confusing, in classical it is a triad inversion with 3rd in the bass.
in jazz a triad with added 6th

and another thing… in jazz and popo inversion often is a full rotation of all the voices ( including the melodic one)
In classical it is only moving of the bass

[Christian Miller]

what do they say in that case?

when I was in classical school these terms were more like fixed name for chords inversions I think under conception of Romantic harmony the fact they were basically general bass was somehow unnoticed

I think that was how they were using them, so probably had a classical harmony teacher.

Not sure if you mean Romantic composers themselves weren’t interested in general bass? But I notice in Tchaikovsky’s practical harmony book for instance he’s still teaching figured bass. There’s some scholarship in this area … anyway

I think it was Schoenberg who made the split?


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[djg]

By the way I think in jazz/pop music English nomenclature is used in the other languages... I know German, Russian, Dutch jazz players who say 'play Dm7b5' just as it is written only pronouncing letters and figures as they are named in their language which sound quite strange often..

never heard any german or dutch player refer to Dm7b5 as: D M 7 B 5. in german we usually say halbvermindert or D moll sieben b fünf. the dutch say halfvermindert or d moll seven b vijf

[Jonah]

I think that was how they were using them, so probably had a classical harmony teacher.

Not sure if you mean Romantic composers themselves weren’t interested in general bass? But I notice in Tchaikovsky’s practical harmony book for instance he’s still teaching figured bass. There’s some scholarship in this area … anyway

I think it was Schoenberg who made the split?


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I meant more general academic school of the late 20th century in Russia (where I studied these things as a kid) formed under influence of Romantic tradition (not particular Romantic composers)...

It is interesting how differently traditions developed: in Russia late 19th century it was Tchaikovsky and Rimsky-Korsakov who have completely legitimized European harmonic system and turned them into a scholar discipline. They also formed two compositional 'schools' - conventionally called St.Petersburg and Moscow - schools that really stayed at least as a notion for next 100 years (I remember even in early 2000s conservatories in both cities competed and still stuck to their 'origins').
Whether this separation ever made sense or not I am not sure ... (to me it seems more like social thing.. ok you can track down Stravinsky and Shostakovich to Rim.-Kor., or Rakhmaninov and Skriabin to Tchaikovsky to certain degree but in many cases it is not that obvious)

And Rim.-Kor. did it structurally, he really had a school, circle of followers, consistent methodology, Tchaikovsky was not really much into teaching.
(And then there was Taneev (a student of Tchaikovsky) who built up a counterpoint theory based on Bach music and it became also fundamental for Russian academic education (curious but in my opinion very complicated and a bit strange).)

Both wrote practical Harmony methods.
I did not check them in details but I saw a big article with comparison: one of the features was that Tchaikovsky put more attention to voice-leading and separate voices, and Rim.-Kor. stressed the integral harmonic sound and the colour.
It can be heard very well in their music also.


When I was at school solving harmonic tasks was a common thing... it was something like chess compositions.
There were standard books with these tasks of different level for different grades etc. And it was mostly taught functionally, of course there was voice leading (it was a must), but general thinking was still in chords, I think...

It was nice but what I do not like now retrospectively that students often learnt the principles on paper but did not hear it well and could not play it...
When there was an exam they awkwardly played sequence of chords mostly thinking how to connect them... only a few could just sit and play it on the spot artisitcally as a piece of music with different solutions.
I think it is the other side of a very autocratic traditionalist academic mentality.
At the end of the day all depended on who your teacher was...

[Jonah]

never heard any german or dutch player refer to Dm7b5 as: D M 7 B 5. in german we usually say halbvermindert or D moll sieben b fünf. the dutch say halfvermindert or d moll seven b vijf

Well.. for what it's worth. I just spoke with a German friend of mine and he said any of the above (and my variant too) is possible... I assume you are German too, so i do not argue.

PS
The difference in Russian terminology (mostly copypaste translation from German).. letters and moll/dur are almost never used in speech: only do, re. mi etc. and mineur/majeur. But jazz and pop/rock players (usually self-taughts) can say sometimes just a Latin letter and a figure

[djg]

Well.. for what it's worth. I just spoke with a German friend of mine and he said any of the above (and my variant too) is possible... I assume you are German too, so i do not argue.

PS
The difference in Russian terminology (mostly copypaste translation from German).. letters and moll/dur are almost never used in speech: only do, re. mi etc. and mineur/majeur. But jazz and pop/rock players (usually self-taughts) can say sometimes just a Latin letter and a figure

D M sieben just sounds whacky. DM is either our pre-euro currency or a drugstore

[Jonah]

never heard any german or dutch player refer to Dm7b5 as: D M 7 B 5. in german we usually say halbvermindert or D moll sieben b fünf. the dutch say halfvermindert or d moll seven b vijf

by the way Dutch say (or at least write) halfverminderd

[djg]

by the way Dutch say (or at least write) halfverminderd

yes they do. it's been 35 years. i can still have conversations in dutch but i never learned to write it properly in the first place...