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Hi everyone,
Taking off from another thread I thought I'd offer this. I wanted to focus on minor key tunes for the OP - what kind of chords do people play in various styles? Well here are some snapshots of the past 100 years. Pretty unscientific. Doing this by era overlooks the quirks of individual styles of course. But there
Minor chord historical survey
Let me know if you think my ears are on wrong... I've focussed on small band recordings where you can hear the rhythm section. Big Band/Orchestra arrangements are a different bag.
Mostly I'm checking out piano.
1920s - straight minors
20's chordal accompaniment was generally pretty triadic. I just love the sound of that big fat minor chord at the start of this tune - heavy as anything. This is one of my favourites of the era. The bass sax sounds epic, the remastering job on this recording is pretty phenomenal.
Anyway I think this pretty much taken as read.... I'm not sure most on the forum are that interested in 1920's practices, so I'll just leave to that one example.
1930s - min6's
OK - here is the classic example of Jazz Manouche la pompe. The voicings here do sound to me like the standard minor 6th grips still used today by Gypsy Jazz players.
Meanwhile in the US, the swing era was starting to get into ... err... swing.
This famous recording of Summertime to my ears features a simple alternation of Im V7/II - the I minor chord is an unadorned triad.
<a data-cke-saved-href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYUqbnk7tCY" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYUqbnk7tCY">
A common way to accompany minor tunes was to play a descending 1-b7-b6-5 bass line (the Lamento bass)
1940s - other notes start to get used in chords
Right at the top of the decade - the comping here sounds like it's based on I-V7-I again, similar to Summertime. The I is a straight minor.
Here is a more boppy example:
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Now this is interesting - listen to the piano under Bird's solo. First time Dodo plays what sounds to me like a chord with a 9th in (but I can't hear a 7th - anyone?), second time a straight minor triad, the third time a m6, and so on. Certainly both minor triads and m6's are used, as well as the odd chord with a 9th in.
TBH I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't Monk that introduced the 'funny notes' to minor chords.
1950s - age of the min(maj7)
Some Miles now - here's Solar (1954) - check out that first chord, boom! This is a min9(maj7) to my ears. Ah, Mr Bond!
I hear mostly major 7ths being played in minor chords on this one. I would kind of expect that. No Mr Bond, I expect you to die. Etc.
Red also likes his m(maj7)s with 6s and 9ths..
<br>
Now we enter the modal era... You can clearly hear in this example how the b7 is being used in the piano chords... To me this is the sound of the 60s...
From here on in I will avoid specific modal tunes and jazz compositions, but track the common practice on standard songs.
I better some guitar on here. I kind of have to include this.
The stinging dissonances (minadd2) are pretty iconic. Notice how Barney Kessel uses another Bond move - 5-#5-6-b7 on the minor triad. This was in use as far back as the 1930s probably earlier (it features in Eddie Lang/Carl Kress's picking my way.)
It's almost as if John Barry was appropriating 1950s jazz harmony for the sound of his film scores... Oh wait - he was :-)
1960s -
I chose this because there's a lot in this record that harks back to the '40s. Also Sonny Clarke is one of my favourite compers.
To my ears, Sonny favours the m(maj7) sound here for tonic minor chords. He might play some pretty fruity chords, but Sonny is definitely a 50's kind of guy.
McCoy Tyner
Heavy m6/9 action (one of my favourite chords) - obviously that's a stack of fourths and Tyner i s known for his quartal harmony. Notice how he uses the same voicing up a tone to get a Dm9/G13 sound in the minor key. Charlie Christian also used the major V in a minor key BTW.
McCoy also goes up and down the dorian in quartal chords - classic move for him obviously. b7 features here.
I would say in general the b7 modal sound becomes much more popular here on in.
Anyway that's all I have time for right now... I'll carry on with this. At some point I'd like to take a good look at major chords.
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01-21-2017 08:32 AM
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Great post!
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That's a good day's worth of listening. Thanks! Will take awhile to absorb it...
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Yes remember them all well, still in library. So back in the mid 60's when I began playing jazz style gigs... I was a kid, but had chops and came from a written, (reading) background. Anyway I was taught first to alter... change the V7 chord by adding the #9... there were a few explanations for why... but the result was going from harmonic minor to Melodic minor and natural minor generally becoming Dorian minor. Not all the time, but that chordal reference became part of performance practice. We were basically using modal interchange. Or an extension of classical borrowing. (I was lucky to perform with cool old B-3 player)... it's his fault I got into Wes and the Black music scene, dam him.
What was interesting is that I was also getting into the new Rock thing... long jams over developing tunes. I was a kid in SF music scene. The whole Berkeley approach wasn't anything new to me, when I eventually went there in mid 70's. They did have better organized approach for teaching, and weren't hung up on forcing or calling everything an embellishment of basic functional harmony. (Schoenberg) All they were doing was trying to teach kids how to play Jazz, that all changes by end of 70's, as did most college approaches towards music.
Anyway back then I became aware of the differences between approaches of understanding basic Minor harmony. Which is just what is use as basis or reference for defining what's going on when performing jazz. Which opened all harmonic understandings.
Sorry for going on... maybe use the practical standard tune, Lover Man, or sections of for example of what that could sound like.
I can't remember who, (sorry), but the changes were re-arranged... using a Pedal and modal interchange... Different sources for Dominant chords.... Maj. or the Sus, to Melodic Minor Lydian b7 to? either Harmonic Min or Maj then MM etc... anyways I thought was very cool... would be fun to solo over etc... Anyway playing something really helps performance aspects better than talking sometimes. I'll post something.
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You hear this a lot on the Sonny Clarke example.
Originally Posted by Reg
That's kind of the way I look at it.there were a few explanations for why... but the result was going from harmonic minor to Melodic minor and natural minor generally becoming Dorian minor. Not all the time, but that chordal reference became part of performance practice. We were basically using modal interchange. Or an extension of classical borrowing. (I was lucky to perform with cool old B-3 player)... it's his fault I got into Wes and the Black music scene, dam him.
I look forward.What was interesting is that I was also getting into the new Rock thing... long jams over developing tunes. I was a kid in SF music scene. The whole Berkeley approach wasn't anything new to me, when I eventually went there in mid 70's. They did have better organized approach for teaching, and weren't hung up on forcing or calling everything an embellishment of basic functional harmony. (Schoenberg) All they were doing was trying to teach kids how to play Jazz, that all changes by end of 70's, as did most college approaches towards music.
Anyway back then I became aware of the differences between approaches of understanding basic Minor harmony. Which is just what is use as basis or reference for defining what's going on when performing jazz. Which opened all harmonic understandings.
Sorry for going on... maybe use the practical standard tune, Lover Man, or sections of for example of what that could sound like.
I can't remember who, (sorry), but the changes were re-arranged... using a Pedal and modal interchange... Different sources for Dominant chords.... Maj. or the Sus, to Melodic Minor Lydian b7 to? either Harmonic Min or Maj then MM etc... anyways I thought was very cool... would be fun to solo over etc... Anyway playing something really helps performance aspects better than talking sometimes. I'll post something.
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What I'd like is to hear your own take on Lover Man, all the way through. No vid, no talk, just music :-) Originally Posted by Reg
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I'll add some more info... my personal reasons for using the harmonic organization I choose.
One of the main reason is.... I believe Blue Notes are one of the basic characteristics of Jazz. And my approach which is somewhat in direction to the Berkeley approach... is the use Of chord patterns... for example the use of II V and I. Which are the basis of traditional functional harmony... the organization of why music moves. Tonic subdominant and dominant the three basic types of movement in music... the organization behind the movement. Anyway
Again just using II V's and either I or implied I... gives one access for organizing application usage of Blue Notes. That access can be from the..
1) The V chord... through Modal interchange, by using different organization of source of the V chord. Which is different from just embellishing notes.... there is/are references from where the embellishment come from with common practice.
2) The II chord again through use of modal interchange gives organization for use of blue notes... source of notes.
3) And the I or implied I chord has standard Maj/min functional harmony references... melodic organization, or embellishments and embellishment types of organization. Simple source for Triad approaches and references, not all but common practice usage from chromatic alterations to make different chord structures available on each degree of a scale but not change the harmonic function. (The harmonic organization of movement). Or even Parallelism which also gives access to different voice leading choices from how parallelism tends to reduce traditional values of function within chord movement.
I tend to use different types of Cadence(s). Context can change strength of different cadences.
-Harmonic cadences... tonic, subdominant and dominant
-Linear Cadences... the lead lines can also imply cadences
-Rhythmic cadences... the use of space, spatial organization, rhythm ( dynamics and articulations etc...)
Personally the trick in performance is to have the technical skills together, easier to say than do. And be aware of different harmonic and melodic approaches and their common practice and be able to create using them. Be able to change what you have memorized in your head... while performing. It's just another skill that becomes easy with practice.
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By blue notes you mean b3, b5/#4 and b7? Or is it wider than that?
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Michael Kanan comping in 1999. Sounds like very inside chords
Last edited by yaclaus; 01-21-2017 at 06:46 PM.
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Reg,
I'm trying to understand. An example or two using a tune might help, if that works for you.
Rick
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That Julie London album with Barney Kessel has a place in history.
Reportedly, the original bossa nova guys passed a copy around and copped the voicings.
Earlier music from Rio is generally more straightforward harmonically. One of the innovations of bossa nova was using jazzier harmony -- and, apparently, they got a lot of that from Barney.
While what Barney was playing seems like pretty standard ballad vocabulary now, I wonder how novel it was back then? Was he the innovator?
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I have heard this. We are talking about Gilberto, right? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Also Ravel was an influence on Jobim...
I would be interested to know indeed.... I think the m(add9) chords might have been quite unusual, for instance?While what Barney was playing seems like pretty standard ballad vocabulary now, I wonder how novel it was back then? Was he the innovator?Last edited by christianm77; 01-21-2017 at 07:19 PM.
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To my ears too. But then legit bebop comping is inside - as in 1 3 6/7. I mean Bud wasn't far removed from stride harmony in the left hand - lots of 10ths, 7ths. (that said I'm ignoring Monk...) I see this album as Kurt plays with a hardcore bop section. His playing on the album isn't pure bop by any stretch of the imagination, but it works great. Originally Posted by yaclaus
I love Kanan's playing. Have you checked out this great duo?
Last edited by christianm77; 01-21-2017 at 07:16 PM.
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+1 Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Interesting, very little use of the little finger. Comping's a bit wild.Kanan
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I'm inferring from your reply you think Kanan is the guitarist? Originally Posted by ragman1
Kanan's the pianist, right? The guitarist, Peter Bernstein is perhaps my favourite living jazz guitarist. His comping is very distinctive, and he doesn't use his pinky much for single note stuff.Last edited by christianm77; 01-21-2017 at 09:39 PM.
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Ah right, names round the wrong way, sorry. Originally Posted by christianm77
You don't think whizzing up and down like that was a waste of energy, took a mite too long, made hitting the wrong fret more likely? Or comped too loud over the piano? And turned the comp itself into a sort of solo? I do. You barely noticed the piano when the guitar was soloing.His comping is very distinctive
Mind you, I know the syndrome. When you've soloing you're in think-mode and it's harder to drop back into accompanying. He'd probably tell you it wasn't his forte.
If it's any consolation I thought his solo was great. And I mean that seriously. Lovely notes.
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Bernstein- schooled. Lol. Originally Posted by ragman1
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I've listened to some more. He probably got better as he got older :-)
But this isn't minor comping, beg pardon.
" Yesterdays " ( J. Kern ) - Peter Bernstein solo guitar - YouTube
Last edited by ragman1; 01-22-2017 at 02:45 AM.
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Huh? Did I watch the same clip? I didn't have time to watch the whole thing, but I checked the comping bit. Kanan soloed with his right hand only, so Peter was supplying the bass line with chords, that's why he travelled up and down the 6th string. That kind of movement between chords using mainly strings 6,4,3 is my 'holy grail' at the moment, and Peter is a master of it. He didn't use the pinky because those chords are meant to be quite minimal so they don't clash with the piano. You don't want big fat chords with lush extensions on top in this context. Originally Posted by ragman1
Also Peter's guitar was turned down almost to 'acoustic' level, it did not drown the piano.
In fact his whole approach here is similar to some of Jim Hall's comping with Bill Evans on the famous 'My Funny Valentine' recording.
Seriously, I'm not sure you understand some of this stuff, there are valuable lessons in that clip.Last edited by grahambop; 01-22-2017 at 06:44 AM.
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grahambop -
You're absolutely right, my mistake entirely. I didn't watch it closely enough. Thanks for pointing it out. As you say, he's using shell voicings, or near shell voicings, and Kanan is only playing with his right hand. I've got it. Mind you - and this isn't one upmanship - I'm not sure how well it worked, although nothing ventured etc. (With Evans, Hall was playing double-time and had a walking bass going, possibly why it worked better).
I meant Bernstein didn't make much use of his pinky during his solo. There was a discussion elsewhere here about 3 finger usage, etc.
It was rather late at night for me, at least that's my excuse :-)Last edited by ragman1; 01-22-2017 at 12:10 PM.
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Apparently not very cleverly, see above. Apologies, not my intention to upset anyone. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I love peters comping. It's like Freddie green gone bop via a tiny hint of derek Bailey
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I just thought it was quite funny the way you put it. I can understand not everyone digging pb's comping but it made me laugh. Originally Posted by ragman1
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It's probably senility Originally Posted by christianm77
Mine, I mean...
Incidentally, I'm not absolutely sure guitar comping and piano solos are quite my cup of tea - although I see the point. Worth trying, of course.
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