Looking for Quartal Harmony Jazz Blues/Blues applications

[WillMbCdn5]

Hi
I have been delving into Quartal Harmony and love what I am hearing and discovering as I try to apply it both from a sub/comping and single note improv. perspective over Jazz Blues/Blues progressions. I first became aware of the Quartal idea after listening to what McCoy Tyner was doing with Coltrane. I could hear all these wonderful voicings, structures and movements that I could really relate too .

In a Jazz Blues/Blues context who would you suggest listening to that uses the quartal harmony approach as a basis for subs/comping/ single note playing on the guitar ? I guess I am asking who is the McCoy Tyner on guitar??

Will

[cosmic gumbo]

Quartal concepts tend to be used more in modal applications than jazz/blues or bebop. John Abercrombie has used quartal stuff quite often.

[christianm77]

Good question. Quartal Harmony is so natural to the guitar.

I do remember Jim Mullen saying to me the reason why he got into the guitar is that he wanted to comp in a modern way, like McCoy Tyner.

[mrcee]

Herbie Hancock joked and said that he resented guitar player's ability to play quartal voicings so easily.

[christianm77]

Herbie Hancock joked and said that he resented guitar player's ability to play quartal voicings so easily.

Did he really?

I love it!

(Then the irony that melodies with lots of fourths like Freedom Jazz Dance are not at all easy to play.)

33xxxx
x33343
x55565

Play on 1, 3 and the upbeat of the next bar respectively

Instant 'A Love Supreme' ;-)

[christianm77]

This trick has got me through a lot of fusion vamps haha:

Robben Ford Shares a Miles Davis Lesson - TrueFire's Guitar Blog

Think 'in a Silent Way/It's About That Time'

I also hear John Scofield also using these ideas. Think he got it from the same source, right?

[mrcee]

Did he really?

I love it!

(Then the irony that melodies with lots of fourths like Freedom Jazz Dance are not at all easy to play.)

33xxxx
x33343
x55565

Play on 1, 3 and the upbeat of the next bar respectively

Instant 'A Love Supreme' ;-)

That's what I heard.

[WillMbCdn5]

This trick has got me through a lot of fusion vamps haha:

Robben Ford Shares a Miles Davis Lesson - TrueFire's Guitar Blog

Think 'in a Silent Way/It's About That Time'

I also hear John Scofield also using these ideas. Think he got it from the same source, right?

Ah yeah I'm familiar with that idea and already use it a lot in the context of Jazz Blues /Blues. I suppose it is similar in that it is based on a harmonized scale. I love Jim Mullen's playing that I've heard so will have to revisit to explore the McCoy Tyner influence - I too am originally from Glasgow and play with my thumb must have been something in the water or beer.

[WillMbCdn5]

Did he really?

I love it!

(Then the irony that melodies with lots of fourths like Freedom Jazz Dance are not at all easy to play.)

33xxxx
x33343
x55565

Play on 1, 3 and the upbeat of the next bar respectively

Instant 'A Love Supreme' ;-)

I think Quartal Harmony should be renamed " the Love Supreme Harmony" the first time I played through the structure I heard that tune as well

[eh6794]

[WillMbCdn5]

Hi eh6794

Thanks for the heads up while I am not really a fan of the fusion style of Chick Korea I can hear where you are pointing and will spend some time listening. I stumbled into the Quartal Harmony idea after first hearing McCoy Tyner comping and soloing on Equinox while looking for jazz blues/blues ideas sounds and concepts I wanted to learn -

I have been transcribing Coltrane's solo and especially trying to come to grips with Tyner's comping and soloing and how it describes and creates a sonic landscape over which Coltrane and Tyner himself craft their solo's. For me right now at my level of understanding and playing ability it is a magical treatment of a jazz blues/blues form. After finding some info on Quartal Harmony and discovering some of the sonic vocabularly I was hearing was obviously available through that concept , I also came across the notion of Modal Harmony and have a feeling there is also more to discover there even though I am well aware both concepts could occupy me for many years
Emily Remler has a great audio that references Equinox and in that context Modal Harmony/Modal Interchange/Quartal Harmony so I seem to have opened a personal jack in the box The discussion in reference to Equinox starts at around 6:50 and continues into Modal-Cadence2.mp3 and Modal-Cadence3.mp3 lots of noodling and discussion centered around the concepts -

http://www.allthingsemily.com/emily-...l-Cadence1.mp3

[WillMbCdn5]

I have a sense that some combination in parts of Modal/Quartal and Tertian Harmony is where my Jazz Blues/Blues ear is wanting to go I just wasn't aware of the Modal/Quartal part of the equation

Will

[sgcim]

Lennie breau did a nice thing with McCoy's "Visions".

[Jeff Mindlin]

Steve Khan! Chord Khancepts.
4thsy blues etc in there!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mrcee]

McCoy Tyner at 3:05 to 3:21.

[WillMbCdn5]

Steve Khan! Chord Khancepts.
4thsy blues etc in there!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks Jeff - looks like a great a resource !!!!

[WillMbCdn5]

McCoy Tyner at 3:05 to 3:21.

Thanks for the heads up - seems like my guitar playing is mostly influenced by Stanley Turrentine/Wynton Kelly/Wayne Shorter and lately McCoy Tyner - either I picked the wrong instrument to play or I'm adrift?

[PB+J]

Herbie Hancock joked and said that he resented guitar player's ability to play quartal voicings so easily.

When I first started learning about quartal voicings I kept thinking 'this cant' be right; just barre the neck?" it seemed too easy

[rpjazzguitar]

Steve Erquiaga has developed quartal harmony on the guitar. Not sure which recording reflects it though.

One tip is this ...

pick a quartal voicing you like. Then move it up through the major scale. Then move it through the melodic minor scale. Then, move it through whatever other scale you like.

The major scale quartal voicings have an ambiguous quality and you can use them in a given key against either major or dominant chords, as long as you don't lean on them too long.

And, for a modal vamp, you can just use them interchangeably.

I found that getting one quartile voicing down all over the neck in 12 keys was a couple of months of work. I thought it was worth it. The voicings can be used on standards, modal tunes, whatever has chords.

The prospect of taking the next step, say, picking a couple of tone clusters in a melodic minor scale and taking them through the scale and into 12 keys ... well, it's daunting.

[christianm77]

Thanks for the heads up - seems like my guitar playing is mostly influenced by Stanley Turrentine/Wynton Kelly/Wayne Shorter and lately McCoy Tyner - either I picked the wrong instrument to play or I'm adrift?

Sounds interesting!

[WillMbCdn5]

Steve Erquiaga has developed quartal harmony on the guitar. Not sure which recording reflects it though.

One tip is this ...

pick a quartal voicing you like. Then move it up through the major scale. Then move it through the melodic minor scale. Then, move it through whatever other scale you like.

The major scale quartal voicings have an ambiguous quality and you can use them in a given key against either major or dominant chords, as long as you don't lean on them too long.

And, for a modal vamp, you can just use them interchangeably.

I found that getting one quartile voicing down all over the neck in 12 keys was a couple of months of work. I thought it was worth it. The voicings can be used on standards, modal tunes, whatever has chords.

The prospect of taking the next step, say, picking a couple of tone clusters in a melodic minor scale and taking them through the scale and into 12 keys ... well, it's daunting.

Yep That is exactly what I have been exploring - specifically harmonizing the Mixolydian, Dorian , Melodic and Harmonic Minor and Lydian Dominant scales ( I choose those as they contain the intervals I tend to favour) as quartal voicings on string sets 1234 and 2345 .You can take any full or pentatonic scale or mode and harmonize it as quartal voicings really. I suspect the key in using them is respecting the scale base the voicings come from and maybe developing the skill/ear to move between scale bases and different quartal voicings specific to the pertinant scale. I dunno this is all new to me Interestingly while some familiar/standard chords occur many of the voicings have a wonderful ambiguity, despite my woeful lack of theory knowledge I believe what it really going on is that it allows access to tone sets or clusters that favor certain upper extension color combinations without having them tied to a specific resolution . The major/minor sounding ambiguity of many of the voicings seem like a lovely brush for creating texture especially when combined with other more functional chord voicings.

try taking a G mixolydian scale harmonizing it in quartal voicings up the neck and use those voicings as subs or ascending or descending approaches in the context of a simple 1 1V V 12 bar blues or jazz blues. Extend that to switching between G/C/D Mixolydian or scale of choice based voicings. At least for me lots of new connections for both comping and soloing ideas leap out all over the place.

I hope that made sense. I am way out of my theory depth here but am really enjoying the sonic exploration and open to any and all suggestions/corrections/redirects and opinions

Will

[rpjazzguitar]

Since Dorian and Mixolydian are modes of the major scale, the grips are the same -- you just need to think about the chord quality. Or not. They all work against any chord in the scale-- more or less.

Same for lydian dominant-- it's a mode of melodic minor. Mark Levine's book considers all melodic minor voicings to be the same thing and therefore interchangeable. So, lydian dominant, minor/major, susb9, alt, etc are all the same. Try it. Try a tune like Desafinado which goes from Imaj to II7#11. So, if that second one is, say, a G7#11, play any voicing at all from Dmelmin (G lyd dom) --meaning, any three or four notes -- and see if it fits.

Mark Levine continues with the notion that there's no avoid note in melodic minor -- which I take to mean that you can pick any group of notes, move it through the scale and every voicing is usable as any of the chord types. And, I know at least one player who seems to have a bunch of these grips worked out.

I've never gone beyond major and melodic minor, but I understand there are good applications for both harmonic minor and harmonic major, all along the same lines.

[christianm77]

Since Dorian and Mixolydian are modes of the major scale, the grips are the same -- you just need to think about the chord quality. Or not. They all work against any chord in the scale-- more or less.

Same for lydian dominant-- it's a mode of melodic minor. Mark Levine's book considers all melodic minor voicings to be the same thing and therefore interchangeable. So, lydian dominant, minor/major, susb9, alt, etc are all the same. Try it. Try a tune like Desafinado which goes from Imaj to II7#11. So, if that second one is, say, a G7#11, play any voicing at all from Dmelmin (G lyd dom) --meaning, any three or four notes -- and see if it fits.

Mark Levine continues with the notion that there's no avoid note in melodic minor -- which I take to mean that you can pick any group of notes, move it through the scale and every voicing is usable as any of the chord types. And, I know at least one player who seems to have a bunch of these grips worked out.

I've never gone beyond major and melodic minor, but I understand there are good applications for both harmonic minor and harmonic major, all along the same lines.

You can actually do this with any interval or combination of intervals - I've been working on this stuff a lot over the past year or so for melodies, for that contemporary sound.

Try fifths and sevenths as well. Also combine with other intervals.

Try on these chord types:
Maj7 - Lydian
Dom 7 - Mixolydian (I have no beef with the 4th on dom chords)
Min7 - Dorian
M7b5 - Locrian

Melodic Minor
Maj7 - Lydian Augmented (Mode III)
Dom 7 - Lydian Dominant (Mode IV), Altered (Mode VII)
Min6/Min(Maj7) - Melodic Minor
Min7b5 - Locrian natural 2 (Mode II)

Like you I haven't worked on harmonic minor so much. Harmonic major could be interesting. Sometimes I find myself playing middle eastern tunes in modes of harmonic minor, so I should learn that scale better probably!

It gets very interesting with fourths in MM and HM - while in Major scales modes you get a lot of perfect fourths with one sharp fourth (tritone). In the other modes you get a lot of tritone as well as a diminished fourth which is the same as a third. Makes practicing them a bit counter intuitive. That one note different in MM has interesting effects intervallically. Can be hard to hear at first.

[WillMbCdn5]

Dorian and Mixolydian are modes of the major scale, the grips are the same -- you just need to think about the chord quality. Or not. They all work against any chord in the scale-- more or less.

I noticed that commonality it even extends to some grips in the major being the same for melodic and harmonic minor just representing different intervals

Same for lydian dominant-- it's a mode of melodic minor.

Yeah being lazy it is like one stop voicing shopping just shift them up an down the neck

So, if that second one is, say, a G7#11, play any voicing at all from Dmelmin (G lyd dom) --meaning, any three or four notes -- and see if it fits.

thanks I will explore that

I've never gone beyond major and melodic minor, but I understand there are good applications for both harmonic minor and harmonic major, all along the same lines.

I like the Harmonic minor voicings they are just Melodic Minor voicing with the 6th flatted. I like the sound of moving between a 6 th and a b6 th and vice versa and leaving the other notes in place.

Even just playing them in as scale progressions there are some nice movements . My theory is lacking so maybe I'm hearing some form of voice leading I dunno.I'm not familiar with Mark Levine I will have to look his writing. I do think in combination with other more standard chords they sound great. I agree that paying attention to the voicing quality and maybe also how each voicing expresses the scale/mode,some of them sound very ambiguous is something that will take a lot of work.

Will

[WillMbCdn5]

You can actually do this with any interval or combination of intervals - I've been working on this stuff a lot over the past year or so for melodies, for that contemporary sound.

Try fifths and sevenths as well. Also combine with other intervals.

Are you using mostly two note combinations , without a guitar in hand at the moment I imagine some stacked intervals would be a challenge as three or four note voicings