Looking for Quartal Harmony Jazz Blues/Blues applications

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

With quartal voicings, I find I've gone from four notes to three. I don't know if I'm on to something or am just lazy!

[christianm77]

Are you using mostly two note combinations , without a guitar in hand at the moment I imagine some stacked intervals would be a challenge as three or four note voicings

Mostly looking at this melodically ATM.

Harmonically, not all combinations are possible, and some are more practical than others. Vic Juris has some nice structures in his book 'Modern Chords'

[christianm77]

With quartal voicings, I find I've gone from four notes to three. I don't know if I'm on to something or am just lazy!

I find three note voicings the most useful personally.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I find three note voicings the most useful personally.

There's a Goldilocks thing happening for me. A four note quartal sounds "fat" while the three note one sounds "just right". Fat is great some of the time, of course.

[mr. beaumont]

Seems like 3 note chords are almost always the best choice, for me.

[Lionelsax]

I now use quartal harmony on tunes like Work Song and Summertime, when a tune has got the same chord on 4 bars or more, it works very well on minor chords and dominant chords when the chord is more a question than an answer.

On altered chords it works well too but it's "semi-quartal" :

For C7+9 I play : E Bb Eb Ab Here are the fourth (in red)...
I think it could work well on a minor blues.

[rpjazzguitar]

Three vs four notes---

I learned four note chords first, a hard legacy to shake completely.

Players as advanced as Tommy Tedesco advocated three note chords in many situations.

Warren Nunes had his students play a lot of two note "chords", usually thirds and sevenths on the D and G strings.

Jim Hall would sometimes hold a note on the E string and pass a note down on the B string.

So, just to hijack the thread for a moment -- in the right situation it can work to hardly play chords at all. Instead, you can hit guide tones, play little lines and fills and hit an actual chord only occasionally. The "right" situation for this type of playing is probably one where there's a bassist and no pianist.

The problem that I find is most significant with a 4 note chord is if it includes the A or low E strings. Then, you have an excellent chance of interfering with the bassist and making mud. So, the 3 note chord is often the better choice.

Another issue is when you can go up an octave. Then, you've got 3 and maybe 4 notes on the upper four strings (referring to pitch). That can sound great, but it does depend on the range of the soloist and the EQ of the guitar.

And, then, there's which 3 notes? I tend to avoid roots and fifths, so I've got a 3rd (or fourth) for most chords. For dominants, the b7 and then some kind of tension depending on the situation. 6, 9, 11, 13, #11, 5, b9, #9. So, you get your starting point with a few notes that work and then you're trying to make the voice leading smooth.

For fourth voicings, I often use the top 4 strings, like xx2233. But if I'm not using the high E, I won't include the A string. Too much risk of making mud. It's seductive with a chord like x55565. Hard to leave out the A string on that one. And, of course, it would take a lot longer to list the exceptions than to state the rule.

[christianm77]

I wonder why noone views it from the perspective of the key? For instance in C major, common grips for II-V-I (with no bass might be)

Dm9 -> (D) F C E
G7b13 -> (G) F B Eb
Cmaj9 -> (C) E B D

Or

4 1 3
4 7 b3
3 7 2

If we look at it this way each line within in the chord has a specific function within the key:

The main thing is 4 (F) going to 3 (E) this is the main engine.
B gives us a nice jazz colour to the last chord
E Eb D gives us a bit of colour. D is a less obvious I major sound, but still pretty stable.
(rules of major chords - any major key note you like but not 4)
Eb creates an interesting chromatic passing tone for more dissonance. But there is no reason why we couldn't use it in the first chord for a more dissonant sound:

4 1 b6
4 7 b6
3 7 5

Or we could even resolve up to an E, say. It seems to me like there's a lot of room for creativity with this type of thing. You could write it down, of course, but I think it's better to translate one's music into chord symbols rather than trying to make music using chord symbol thinking. The systems not very good TBH.

[Lionelsax]

@christianm77 it is just classic voicings, I'm working on those.

[WillMbCdn5]

BigDaddy,rpjazz and Mr B -

on the subject of three note voicings - Steve Khan suggests that playing three note stacked fourths on strings 2/3 and 4 best approximates McCoy Tyners piano use of them which he says was centered/played on his left hand . I'm guessing it leaves space for the bass player and the soloist. They do sound nice that way and as BigDaddy suggests a little less fat.

Will

[christianm77]

@christianm77 it is just classic voicings, I'm working on those.

Either everyone is completely missing the point of my posts or I am communicating incredibly badly. Of course the voicings are obvious.

Hmmm. I feel a veeeedeeeeoooo coming on.

[WillMbCdn5]

A couple of diagrams for voicings that I made to get me started hope they are useful to anyone else interested in the subject. Let me know if I am in error and I will fix



Will

[WillMbCdn5]

I wonder why noone views it from the perspective of the key? For instance in C major, common grips for II-V-I (with no bass might be)

Dm9 -> (D) F C E
G7b13 -> (G) F B Eb
Cmaj9 -> (C) E B D

Or

4 1 3
4 7 b3
3 7 2

If we look at it this way each line within in the chord has a specific function within the key:

The main thing is 4 (F) going to 3 (E) this is the main engine.
B gives us a nice jazz colour to the last chord
E Eb D gives us a bit of colour. D is a less obvious I major sound, but still pretty stable.
(rules of major chords - any major key note you like but not 4)
Eb creates an interesting chromatic passing tone for more dissonance. But there is no reason why we couldn't use it in the first chord for a more dissonant sound:

4 1 b6
4 7 b6
3 7 5

The voicings and progression are lovely and ones I am familiar with and I really appreciate your description of the movement involved I'm just unsure how it relates to quartal voicings. I'm quite sure I could have entirely missed the point which happens often

Will

[Lionelsax]

@Will, I visualize now why melodic and harmonic minor modes are not so evident.
Because of the diminished fourth that sounds like like a major third, that doesn't sound quartal anymore.

B alt : B Eb A D or better said B D# A D (R 3 b7 b3)

It sounds too tonal !

[christianm77]

The voicings and progression are lovely and ones I am familiar with and I really appreciate your description of the movement involved I'm just unsure how it relates to quartal voicings. I'm quite sure I could have entirely missed the point which happens often

Will

It doesn't really. But it could!

Dm11 - x (5) 5 5 6 x
G7(add maj7) - (3) x 4 4 6 x
Cmaj7#11 - x (3) 4 4 5

5 1 4
#4 7 4 (wierd, right:-))
#4 7 3

(You have to have that #4 cos otherwise it's a natural 4th which wouldn't be resolved.) The chord in the middle is a passing chord of course. It doesn't have to be nice or conventional: it just has to resolve.

[WillMbCdn5]

It doesn't really. But it could!

Dm11 - x (5) 5 5 6 x
G7(add maj7) - (3) x 4 4 6 x
Cmaj7#11 - x (3) 4 4 5

5 1 4
#4 7 4 (wierd, right:-))
#4 7 3

(You have to have that #4 cos otherwise it's a natural 4th which wouldn't be resolved.) The chord in the middle is a passing chord of course. It doesn't have to be nice or conventional: it just has to resolve.

Yike your depth of knowledge never ceases to amaze me -comparing the progression voicing for voicing is incredibly educational - I hear the connection and love the sound of the quartal voicings - my ear is getting an olympic workout which is a good thing

Will

[Lionelsax]

Either everyone is completely missing the point of my posts or I am communicating incredibly badly. Of course the voicings are obvious.

Hmmm. I feel a veeeedeeeeoooo coming on.

I'm sorry Christian, I prefer hearing you play, than reading you, you play great.
Man, you just communicate wonderfully with music not with words.

[mr. beaumont]

I'm sorry Christian, I prefer hearing you play, than reading you, you play great.
Man, you just communicate wonderfully with music not with words.

When it comes to music, I feel that way about everybody's writing.

Including my own.

[christianm77]

I'm sorry Christian, I prefer hearing you play, than reading you, you play great.
Man, you just communicate wonderfully with music not with words.

I you telling me to 'shut and play my guitar'

Probably best free advice I've had this year

[christianm77]

Quartal harmony is harmony built in fourths. These fourths can be perfect always (chromatic) or diatonic (meaning sometimes not perfect.)

You have choices about how to use these structures. You can use them as parallel chromatic structures for instance to back up a melody. Each chord is a stack of perfect fourths. This is the way I hear McCoy Tyner using them. Great sound, and actually one of the first things I played around with in jazz. Very natural of course to the guitar.

But you can do the same with major triads, say, in parallel to back up a top line melody. However, that's not what necessarily we mean when we say 'tertial harmony' (I don't think) - we call it 'parallelism in harmony.'

OR - you can use them in combination with other structures to create something else, diatonically perhaps, treating the 1 4 5 (9) chord as the analogue to a maj(7) sound.

Just an idea.

[WillMbCdn5]

Dude you have lost me.

Quartal harmony is harmony built in fourths. These fourths can be perfect always (chromatic) or diatonic (meaning sometimes not perfect.)

You have choices about how to use these structures. You can use them as parallel chromatic structures for instance to back up a melody. Each chord is a stack of perfect fourths. This is the way I hear McCoy Tyner using them. Great sound, and actually one of the first things I played around with in jazz. Very natural of course to the guitar.

But you can do the same with major triads, say, in parallel to back up a top line melody. However, that's not what necessarily we mean when we say 'tertial harmony' (I don't think) - we call it 'parallelism in harmony.'

OR - you can use them in combination with other structures to create something else, diatonically perhaps, treating the 1 4 5 (9) chord as the analogue to a maj(7) sound.

Just an idea.

I just bumped into the idea of organum/parallel organum is this what you are alluding too Christian ?

Will

[christianm77]

I just bumped into the idea of organum/parallel organum is this what you are alluding too Christian ?

Will

Yes.

BTW a good book to read is this one if you haven't seen it:

Twentieth Century Harmony: Creative Aspects and Practice: Amazon.co.uk: V Persichetti: 9780393095395: Books

[Lionelsax]

Good question. Quartal Harmony is so natural to the guitar.

I do remember Jim Mullen saying to me the reason why he got into the guitar is that he wanted to comp in a modern way, like McCoy Tyner.

You're absolutely right ! Everyone can comp properly with quartal harmony.
I tried it, I wanted to post it in this thread.
But it's too late.
This is what I've done and I can't really play the guitar, I can, but not as well as all of you.

[gersdal]

Interesting question of OP, and interesting charts of Will. Tried to use the mixolydian chart (for the first time) on a blues comp just now. Doesn't sound to bad (exept the last note ).

A couple of diagrams for voicings that I made to get me started hope they are useful to anyone else interested in the subject. Let me know if I am in error and I will fix



Will

[rpjazzguitar]

I use quartile voicings in a lot of what I do.

In fact, it was one of the few areas where I was able to learn a theory and then apply it without first having to learn specific uses within tunes.

Usually, I don't get much out of abstract theoretical considerations, but this was an exception.

Here's how it worked.

I learned about the voicings from Steve Erquiaga, but I couldn't see/hear the application.

Much later, I had a lesson from Chico Pinheiro and he comped using the quartiles. At that point, one way to use them suddenly became obvious.

Say you have 2 measures of Cmaj7. You know your Cmaj scale quartiles. You can use them all, just don't lean too hard on voicings containing an F. So instead of chunking away on Cmaj7 to C6, back and forth (my first teacher was an old big band guy), you just make a little line using the quartiles. Any of them.

Say, the next chord is Bb7#11 (Rapaz De Bem, is one tune with that change). That chord comes from Fmelmin. Since there's no avoid note in melodic minor harmony (so says Levine) you can use any of your quartiles in place of this chord. Try it. They don't all sound the same, but they all work. And you can develop your little melodic line (formed substantially by the top note in the voicings) so that instead of chunking away at chords, you're now playing a countermelody.

Of course, you can do that with voicings in 3rds too (and sometimes that's a better choice). You can even mix and match 3rd and 4th voicings. Not all combinations work well to my ear, but some do.

In every case I started with xx2233 and moved through the scale. You don't have to start there. Any group works for melodic minor. But, you have to start somewhere.

Chico also said something else that was extremely helpful. He pointed out that getting this down is only a couple of months of work. That proved true. Well worth the effort.