I VI ii V chord voicings

[jordanklemons]

Hi Jordan,
how do you finger the Bb(add2) ? Do you use your thumb to get the low Bb or is it a barre chord?

Yeah, it's a barre, and then my pinky grabs the add2. It's a bit of stretch, but doable. Especially if I play the melody note first (getting the barre set) and then drop everything else after.

This is why I'm thinking of maybe going to a shorter scale. To get stuff like this a little easier and make it more realistic to use these types of chords in faster tempos with less issue.

[jordanklemons]

There is absolutely no reason, in my opinion, for a small scale guitar to have "crappy tone". I have built close to a dozen, and I would say they all have as good a tone as any full sized or long scale guitar. I don't know about a plank electric. Perhaps you would need differently wound pickups. For an acoustic guitar it is all about knowing how to voice a guitar. A smaller acoustic guitar will have less volume (as in db output), but not necessarily poor tone. I think the impression exists because the major factories put out indifferently built low quality small guitars for "kids".

It will feel different under your fingers. But the effect is easy to preview. If you play in standard tuning, down tune half a step and place a capo on the first fret. Voila a 24" scale (assuming you are starting with a 25.5" instrument).

Here is a picture of three I made and kept over the last dozen years. The one on the left is 24", middle back is 25.5" and the one on the right is 25". I play the carbon fiber one the most (25"), but ever so often I pick up the little one and am blown away at the soulful tone and ease of playability. The picture doesn't do it justice, they really look different next to each other.

Woo hoo! A luthiers opinion on the matter! Nice guitars... I've never seen carbon fiber top like that. My classical teacher had some type of carbon fiber bracing underneath the wooden top... I think he said it looked like webbing... which allowed the builder to make the wood super thin and his guitar had such an incredible volume output it was crazy... and a beautiful responsive sound and tone. But it still looked like wood on top.

I'm curious more about the scale though. There's really no different in tone and depth and warmth? Or sound in general? Isn't part of what makes a baritone sound lower that it has a much longer scale length? Plus the strings and tuning of course. I guess I always thought that guitars were like saxes... the tenor is bigger and longer than the alto a produces a deeper sound. The violin and mandolin are smaller than the guitar (the scale length is significantly shorter and the body size is as well) and they're both much brighter and higher pitched and sharp. No?

I'd love to be wrong. I'm really working hard to develop a whole new way of approaching harmony on the guitar and I'm sort of in the process of creation with it... trying to figure out how to put this stuff onto the fretboard... not necessarily how to find the most fretboard friendly shapes. Many of the voicings I find fit just fine. But some of them are a stretch. And some of them are just impossible and I have to change things around and alter them to make them work. I'm not talking like a drop from 25.5 down to 24. I was thinking of what would have if I cut the scale length down by several inches. Like maybe down to 20 or something. Not looking for something that looks like a toy. But I'm wondering how big a physical difference it would make for ease of playing balanced with how much sound and depth and low-end I'd be sacrificing... if any.

Thoughts?

[mrcee]

I was intrigued with ukuleles for a minute. As most know they've become a real fad and there are larger variations that are popular like guitarleles (17") and baritone ukes (19"). Guitarleles are about what the name implies, really just small six nylon string guitars. Baritone ukes are about the same but with four strings which some tune like the top four of a standard guitar. I didn't like anything about them, including the tone, on the ones I played at all. Maybe they were just low quality instruments. The Mexican Requinto is a six string small classical with about a 21" scale length tuned up a 4th and is a legitimate instrument. It would be interesting to hear what a baritone guitar like a Danolectro (29 3/4) would sound like if you put 12s on it and tuned it like a std. guitar. I don't see why a 20" scale guitar would have to sound like a toy but maybe it would if it was standard tuned. Capoing a 25 1/2" at the 4th fret would be about 20". But maybe it would have to be tuned up a 4th in order to have a decent tone. I've played Duosonics and Mustangs, 22 1/2", and they sound ok. This is an interesting topic and I'd like to hear more.

[Reg]

Yea those sound like late night voicings, There easy enough to play, but how would you use them. What type of concept. Maybe even context, The lead line(s) is/are almost a pedal etc... I always did you insights.

[rlrhett]

Woo hoo! A luthiers opinion on the matter! Nice guitars... I've never seen carbon fiber top like that. My classical teacher had some type of carbon fiber bracing underneath the wooden top... I think he said it looked like webbing... which allowed the builder to make the wood super thin and his guitar had such an incredible volume output it was crazy... and a beautiful responsive sound and tone. But it still looked like wood on top.

I'm curious more about the scale though. There's really no different in tone and depth and warmth? Or sound in general? Isn't part of what makes a baritone sound lower that it has a much longer scale length? Plus the strings and tuning of course. I guess I always thought that guitars were like saxes... the tenor is bigger and longer than the alto a produces a deeper sound. The violin and mandolin are smaller than the guitar (the scale length is significantly shorter and the body size is as well) and they're both much brighter and higher pitched and sharp. No?

I'd love to be wrong. I'm really working hard to develop a whole new way of approaching harmony on the guitar and I'm sort of in the process of creation with it... trying to figure out how to put this stuff onto the fretboard... not necessarily how to find the most fretboard friendly shapes. Many of the voicings I find fit just fine. But some of them are a stretch. And some of them are just impossible and I have to change things around and alter them to make them work. I'm not talking like a drop from 25.5 down to 24. I was thinking of what would have if I cut the scale length down by several inches. Like maybe down to 20 or something. Not looking for something that looks like a toy. But I'm wondering how big a physical difference it would make for ease of playing balanced with how much sound and depth and low-end I'd be sacrificing... if any.

Thoughts?

I have a luthier friend named Pepe Romero (yes his father is THAT Pepe Romero) who builds ukuleles and guitaleles as well as traditional classical guitars. His guitars go for $20k and he has a multi-year wait list, so I don't know what the ukes sell for. I think only a few are actually made by his hands. Are the ones made under license as good? I don't know. Only played one of his.

I can tell you that there is nothing "toy" about the sound. Daniel Ho recorded a duet album on one of them playing opposite Pepe Sr. Brilliant. Here is a rather long Youtube showing both Daniel and Pepe playing a uke.

The point is that there really is nothing inherent about small bodied/scale guitars that lose the mellowness and tone. It is all in the hands of the luthier.

PS. I should add that there is actually a lot of difference between 25.5 and 24 or 23.5. I think you would be surprised to find you don't need to go all the way down to 17 or 20.

[KirkP]

A capo gives you a short scale guitar, as long as you can live with incorrect fret markers and disapproving looks from the jazz police.

[jordanklemons]

I have a luthier friend named Pepe Romero (yes his father is THAT Pepe Romero) who builds ukuleles and guitaleles as well as traditional classical guitars. His guitars go for $20k and he has a multi-year wait list, so I don't know what the ukes sell for. I think only a few are actually made by his hands. Are the ones made under license as good? I don't know. Only played one of his.

I can tell you that there is nothing "toy" about the sound. Daniel Ho recorded a duet album on one of them playing opposite Pepe Sr. Brilliant. Here is a rather long Youtube showing both Daniel and Pepe playing a uke.

The point is that there really is nothing inherent about small bodied/scale guitars that lose the mellowness and tone. It is all in the hands of the luthier.

PS. I should add that there is actually a lot of difference between 25.5 and 24 or 23.5. I think you would be surprised to find you don't need to go all the way down to 17 or 20.

Thanks! I didn't intend for this thread to go in this direction when I shared those voicings... but learning a lot and appreciate the insights and the video!

[docdosco]

Thanks! I didn't intend for this thread to go in this direction when I shared those voicings... but learning a lot and appreciate the insights and the video!

I discovered something interesting in that the Maestro I have is short scale, but a 1 3/4" nut, and the high positions loose that cramped feeling I get on a regular short scale neck.

Yes, insights abound on the forum even for an old dog like me..... (this is working on the theory that the older I get, the less I really know...)