Any ii-V can substitute for any ii-V

[Boston Joe]

remember yesterday how I suspected that each family would have similar mechanisms? Well, somebody should have bet me, they would have cleaned up. That is not the case at all. I came back from last night's explorations with an empty sack. It seems like in each family, half resolve up and the others resolve down on any scale degree you want to look at

Aw, I'm sad to hear that. Maybe we can come up with a new classification system that organizes the chords by how they resolve.

But you're right, this is a really interesting thing to look at, and it's opened up some good avenues of exploration for me.

[lawson-stone]

I'm at work so I'm doing this in my head, but Gm7 C7 CMaj7 "sounds funny", as in "oh yeah, I meant to do that <slinks off>." What would you do to make it sound like you nailed the landing, fellow gymnasts?

EDIT: resolving a line Bb->A from C7->CMaj7 works, for example, but it's more the harmonic progression than voicing leading that is awkward/

Think of Am7 as a kind of meeting of Fmaj7 and Cmaj7


-Lawson
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."-Beowulf

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Think of Am7 as a kind of meeting of Fmaj7 and Cmaj7

Thanks, that makes sense. From C7 you're expecting a FMaj7 but here we pull it toward a F Lydian sound.

[Robertkoa]

I posted a short lived thread a while back I called "II V Whatever".
It was an an exploration of an idea Julian Lage posited in a teaching video.


1. Dm9 G13 resolving everywhere
2. IIM9 V13 everywhere resolving to C

It worked better than I expected.

Generally a 7th is able to resolve almost anywhere using common tones and neighbor tones.
It is inherent in the way a 7th chord divides up the terrain of an octave.

Wow. The examples 1 and 2 above are wild and interesting for people like me interested in composing.
[Technically I am writing Modern R&B I suppose with Jazz Improv over it.].




Also , not growing up on Standards..I have thought it used too much Circle of Fifth type Harmony ( although it is amazing what they did with it...the sophistication )..
But obviously - if someone is composing new material hopefully some " new" ground will be broken.

But these concepts are interesting and mind expanding as raw material for some fresh chord progressions...especially if mixed in with other root movements .
Also possibly ways to get back to the Home Key etc.
Anyway...thanks for an Ocean of new things to explore !
My Mind/ Ear creates passing chords and lines for improv-
BUT for Progressions and root movements I am rather non gifted and have to just find those on the Guitar often
especially the initial idea.
I would never " hear" some of these wilder substitutions !
Very cool mind expanding Concepts....
However I have always found that 5 and 6 note chords seem to " resolve" to more places.
So interesting that Julian Lage chose ii Minor 9 and V13...

[bako]

So interesting that Julian Lage chose ii Minor 9 and V13...

I chose those. The idea was to see how effectively a generic II V move could resolve to multiple locations.
One can also color the II V a bit to anticipate the resolution. I wish I could link the original Lage video.

[Robertkoa]

12 new options to reharm ii - V ... hmmm, I'll check it out, right after I master the 64 options you get in the m3rd Matrix below where any chord in the first column goes to any chord in the 2nd column.



Dm7.............G7
Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
Fm7.............Bb7
Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9)
Abm7...........Db7
Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)
Bm7.............E7
Bm7(b5).......E7(b9)


Anyone use these?

Is the idea that The Resolution IF there was a Column 3 would be C Major or C minor ?
OR a Column 4 would be each of the Dominants resolving to their Tonic OR chromatically down as though they were a Tritone Sub ?

[Nate Miller]

Is the idea that The Resolution IF there was a Column 3 would be C Major or C minor ?
OR a Column 4 would be each of the Dominants resolving to their Tonic OR chromatically down as though they were a Tritone Sub ?

no, it would be resolving to C in the context of a substitution, but as a composer, you could resolve it to the tonic of the dominant like you said, and it would be a way to bring about a modulation. Even if it was a temporary modulation

it also could resolve to another ii-V in a chain of ii-Vs or any substitution for the tonic

so I think I see what you are seeing, and you are right that this sort of thing can be used as a pivot to another key as well

[Robertkoa]

Thanks Nate -Also - for just raw composition material - this is an eye/ ear opening Thread !

Seems like if you stick a
Vii half diminished chord in front of ANY destination I or i you don't have to be near as careful...meaning as a final ending to the substitute ii V as an interpolated Chord...

So you would have ANY[ ii minor 9- V 13 ] resolving to ANY [ vii half diminshed- I]

I have to try more of these and some of my favorite voicings but it seems like the mind glues everything together immediately after you get to the new destination...making it sound like it was more intentional...less voice leading needed.



Long ago in my teens I read Harmony by Walter Piston and as an untrained wanna be Composer I always wanted to be able to smoothly modulate from anywhere to anywhere ..sometimes I intentionally avoided Dominant Harmony...

but Piston's Pivot Chord thing sucks because you are going to a closely related Key that way...but this type of thing is Bang...and the Theory comes afterwards almost..it is just the thing I am here for !

After I 70% digest this...maybe 50% lol...
I wonder if it can be done in the Subdominant Direction somehow..possibly a II- V to a distant Vii of IV- IV- I or a distant Vii -IV-I

In Jazz..you guys a V ing mostly in Rock/ R&B in some ways we are IV ing more often...

Also when I say Rock I am not talking about screaming high gain Solos or crunchy chords...more about the other Cadences and stuff more common to Rock/Pop the Solos are more Jazz than anything else...the R&B is a Rhythmic Reference .

But with this Technique you can break the cycle of fifths with a more distant destination but take advantage of the strength of II- Vs.

It really doesn't sound "outside" most of the time as I thought it would- so cool.

I have used "Backdoor " Cadences before based on bVII with ¤vii of bVII etc and other Cadences but 'disguised' or Deceptive Modulating Cadence/Sequences sometimes (!) work well for what I am Composing and attempting.