Any ii-V can substitute for any ii-V

[lawson-stone]

That would be the basic altered scale type stuff, yes? I've also found that an Ab Maj arp works.

One of my favorites is at the end of "Moon River" in C, I play AbMaj7, DbMaj7, CMaj7, pedaling on the C. It works nicely and is just Maj7 tritone subs on the ii-V.

[Nate Miller]

its also there in the "Dameron turnaround" from Ladybird

keeping a pedal point through those changes at the finale is a nice idea, Lawson

[Vladan]

Just did a little figuring: Of the 11 possibilities, 7 are covered by common subs:

In C - just listing the dominant chords:

Diminished family: G / Bb / Db / F

Whole tone family: G / A / B / C#(Db) / D#(Eb) / F

Major 3rd (giant steps) family: G / B / D#

So it's really the other four ( Ab / C / D / E ) that need investigating.

That seems likely. I'm pretty good with the diminshed family subs. I should probably work more with some of the whole tone family.

Last night I was messing around with F#-/B7/C. I found a couple of neat sounds (and a few awful ones). I need to work with it in a more organized way.

So, F#-/B7/C, which family from your previous post it belongs to?

[Boston Joe]

So, F#-/B7/C, which family from your previous post it belongs to?

I guess it would be part of the major third family, which I haven't really investigated all that thoroughly. I was just fooling around with it.

[princeplanet]

12 new options to reharm ii - V ... hmmm, I'll check it out, right after I master the 64 options you get in the m3rd Matrix below where any chord in the first column goes to any chord in the 2nd column.



Dm7.............G7
Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
Fm7.............Bb7
Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9)
Abm7...........Db7
Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)
Bm7.............E7
Bm7(b5).......E7(b9)


Anyone use these?

[bako]

I posted a short lived thread a while back I called "II V Whatever".
It was an an exploration of an idea Julian Lage posited in a teaching video.


1. Dm9 G13 resolving everywhere
2. IIM9 V13 everywhere resolving to C

It worked better than I expected.

Generally a 7th is able to resolve almost anywhere using common tones and neighbor tones.
It is inherent in the way a 7th chord divides up the terrain of an octave.

[whiskey02]

I don't know about "any" but just noodling on a pad and may guitar, I came up with more than I actually ever use when I play.

For Dm7 G7 C:
Dm7 can sub an Ab lots of kinds; D/F/Ab/B dim7; Am6 will work too
G7: Db (tritone); Abm7 (can resolve to Am7); Ab/B/D/F dim (same as for Dm7); Fm7
C: Also Em7 or Am7 esp. other than at end

What's bizarre is that I never play most of these, but sitting here with my guitar just playing the arpeggios I'm amazed at how apt they can sound. A good example of having the theory knowledge in my head but I just never tried to use some of it, probably because I so seldom get on a bandstand and have to deliver.

Also: those of us who just can't seem to rip out these really fast lines can at least play our slower lines in a richer harmonic vein.

Are you folks talking about actually subbing the chord changes, or superimposing these subs into your solo lines against the original changes?
Years ago when my teacher handed me a huge cache of "superimposing possibilities" I played through and spelled out all of them for each chord type and I then realized that it would be much simpler for me to remember the very few notes that didn't easily "work" over each major, minor or dom7 chords.

[Nate Miller]

I'm talking about actually substituting changes. It definitely starts as a superimposition idea, it was a horn player that put me onto this, but if horn players are playing the superimposition, then exploring the voice leading and resolution in the chords is what this little expedition is all about

[Nate Miller]

What I'm seeing playing around with arpeggios in an admittedly mechanical way is that I always seem to end up just one fret away from a chord-tone for the I

this kept coming back to mind last night when I was working through this stuff. I also was thinking about the family relationships Joe talked about

As I kept substituting pretty freely from different families, I was noticing how close the resolution tones on the I chord are. If you throw in the 6th to the I chord (in C: C E G A B) then think about it....

there's 5 of the 12 notes right there!

what's more, they're spaced out rather nicely across the octave

a fella would be pretty hard pressed to find a note that's very far away from a resolution no matter what ii-V he played

[PMB]

One of my favorites is at the end of "Moon River" in C, I play AbMaj7, DbMaj7, CMaj7, pedaling on the C. It works nicely and is just Maj7 tritone subs on the ii-V.

vi chords usually work well as an ending when the melody finishes on the tonic as in the case of Moon River. The tonic chord itself can sound dull in that instance. A related option is to play a backdoor cadence from the iv: | F-7 | Bb9 | C6 |. #iv endings also work a treat over a tonic pedal: | F#ø7 F-7 | E-7#5 Eb°7 | D-7 DbΔ7 | C6 ||.

[Boston Joe]

12 new options to reharm ii - V ... hmmm, I'll check it out, right after I master the 64 options you get in the m3rd Matrix below where any chord in the first column goes to any chord in the 2nd column.



Dm7.............G7
Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
Fm7.............Bb7
Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9)
Abm7...........Db7
Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)
Bm7.............E7
Bm7(b5).......E7(b9)


Anyone use these?

All the time. And you don't have to limit yourself to 7b9 chords either. 7#11 and 7b13 chords can work too.

Edit: The E7 should be an F7, yes?

[Boston Joe]

Are you folks talking about actually subbing the chord changes, or superimposing these subs into your solo lines against the original changes?

Yes. :P

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Just did a little figuring: Of the 11 possibilities, 7 are covered by common subs:

In C - just listing the dominant chords:

Diminished family: G / Bb / Db / F

Whole tone family: G / A / B / C#(Db) / D#(Eb) / F

Major 3rd (giant steps) family: G / B / D#

So it's really the other four ( Ab / C / D / E ) that need investigating.

Do you mean E (Fb) not F in the diminished family? E can work well. I often hear it like you're borrowing from A minor:

Instead of Dm7 G7 ... CMaj7 it's Bm7b5 E7Alt ... Aminor -- no, back to CMaj7!

[princeplanet]

All the time. And you don't have to limit yourself to 7b9 chords either. 7#11 and 7b13 chords can work too.

Edit: The E7 should be an F7, yes?

No, why do you ask? I learned that the D , F , Ab , and B group were m7 or m7b5, whereas the G , Bb, Db , and E group were either 7 or 7b9.

Now that I try Cm7 - F7 - Cmaj7(6) , it sounds pretty cool, sounds like a useable turnaround.

So maybe anything goes, for my taste the m3rd martix subs are kinda safe, but really, I just tried all 12 x ii - V's and honestly couldn't find a sound I disliked....

[princeplanet]

Do you mean E (Fb) not F in the diminished family? E can work well. I often here it like you're borrowing from A minor:

Instead of Dm7 G7 ... CMaj7 it's Bm7b5 E7Alt ... Aminor -- no, back to CMaj7!

That's how I think of it conceptually as well.

[Nate Miller]

So maybe anything goes...

I tend to think anything does go

harmony, at least functional harmony, only has tonic, subdominant and dominant functions, which are really just denoting tension and release

no matter what key you are in, there are 7 notes in and 5 notes out

as I mentioned a little bit ago, for the tonic there are 5 notes that are resolutions and the other 7 created various degrees of tension. All of the tension creating notes are near to a note that will resolve the tension

given all that, it seems to me that good voice leading trumps the immediate functional relationships, and if that is true, then the consequence is that truly anything does go as long as it gets to a resolution

[NoReply]

I think the real goal at least in how I view it is no matter what I play intentional or un-intentional I can make it work. That is the the skill the masters all have, you never knew if they made a mistake or were intentionally getting outside. In some interviews you'll hear greats say it's funny how people transcribe them and even transcribe their mistakes, points out only they knew it was a mistake.

[Boston Joe]

No, why do you ask? I learned that the D , F , Ab , and B group were m7 or m7b5, whereas the G , Bb, Db , and E group were either 7 or 7b9.

I see where you're coming from on that. I haven't worked with E so much. I tend to think of the "Diminished group" as being rooted on the 1, b3, b5, and b7 of the original chord. I know that's not exact, but it works for me.

E7 would have the 3,5,b9, and 6 of the original chord, so it should work fine.

[Boston Joe]

Just doing a little math out loud here:

In C.

F-7 F Ab C Eb
b7 b9 11 b13 - Chord degrees relative to G7

Bb7 Bb D F Ab
#9 5 b7 b9

-------------

Ab-7 Ab Cb Eb Gb
b9 3 b13 M7 - change Gb to F? (Abdim7?)

Db7 Db F Ab Cb(B)
b5 b7 b9 3

---------------

C-7 C Eb G Bb
11 b13 1 #9

F7 F A C Eb
b7 9 11 b13 - Change C to B (F7b5b13 - Looks whole-tone-ish)

--------------

B-7 B D F# A
3 5 M7 9 - Change F# to F (B-7b5)

E7 E G# B D
13 b9 3 5

--------------

Bb-7 Bb Db F Ab
#9 #11 7 b9

Eb7 Eb G Bb Db
b13 1 #9 #11

[princeplanet]

Your first chord is Fmaj 7, if it was F-7 you get the b9 and b13, the 2 coolest notes against a Dom chord, no?

[Boston Joe]

Your first chord is Fmaj 7, if it was F-7 you get the b9 and b13, the 2 coolest notes against a Dom chord, no?

D'oh! Fixing...

[Boston Joe]

Fixed

[Boston Joe]

I just went through all 12 dominant chords. They all have at least one good tone to resolve into CMaj. Some have as many as 3.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I'm at work so I'm doing this in my head, but Gm7 C7 CMaj7 "sounds funny", as in "oh yeah, I meant to do that <slinks off>." What would you do to make it sound like you nailed the landing, fellow gymnasts?

EDIT: resolving a line Bb->A from C7->CMaj7 works, for example, but it's more the harmonic progression than voicing leading that is awkward/

[Nate Miller]

Joe, one of the things I've been looking at is whether the resolution note is above or below a particular scale degree in each family of chords. Does it resolve up or down? this would be good to know because if you knew that such and such class of these chords had the 7th resolve down, or something like that, that would be very useful

remember yesterday how I suspected that each family would have similar mechanisms? Well, somebody should have bet me, they would have cleaned up. That is not the case at all. I came back from last night's explorations with an empty sack. It seems like in each family, half resolve up and the others resolve down on any scale degree you want to look at

but looking for patterns in the direction of resolution is interesting.

and again, this has been a fun idea to explore with you guys.