Chord inversions and qualities

**Daller94** · 03-08-2016, 12:19 PM

Hi guys!

Very first post here, hope you can help me out. I recently found a lot of joy expanding my chord repetoire and in doing so bought the Joseph Alexander book "Jazz chord mastery"... Mastery seems slightly pretentious, however, I do have a question regarding some chords and their inversions.

Going through the 3 inversions of the m7 drop2 chord, I find that one of the voicings (there are probably millions of other examples but bear with me here) is exactly the same as a 6 chord. How come that a chord shape with a major quality can be the same as a chord with a minor quality just in another inversion? That's is really causing some wondering and my best guess so far is the context in which each of the chord is being used?

I hope some can put a bit of clarification to my tiny struggle

Best wishes

Daniel

**mr. beaumont** · 03-08-2016, 12:23 PM

What notes are in it? That's your answer.

Stop right now and learn the fretboard and learn how chords are built before you memorize one more shape.

**Daller94** · 03-08-2016, 12:27 PM

Well, that's pretty much the writer's message and that is exactly what is leading me to this obstacle. When I learn the shapes I look at the notes as well as the root and intervals based around it but how does "look at notes" help me out?

**joe2758** · 03-08-2016, 12:29 PM

C major6 = CEGA
A minor7 = ACEG

same notes

follow Mr. B's advice

edit to ad: play the same shape under a C bass note vs and A bass note and hear how it can have a minor or major function

**Daller94** · 03-08-2016, 12:34 PM

... And that is exactly what makes me wonder.. How can a m7 chord be a 6 chord at the same time? I know how to build both chords as well as the notes found in them but when is a drop2 chord a m7 and when is it a 6 chord?

**Nate Miller** · 03-08-2016, 12:37 PM

in 7th chord harmony, once you voice the chord on the guitar (I'm not dead sure what drop2 means, I learned a different system) but after you add extensions and replace either the root or the 5th with a 9th or 13th a lot of these chords share the same notes with another 7th chord

so a D minor 7 (D, F, A, C) and an F major 6 (F,A,C, D) are inversion of each other. the only difference is which note you are calling the root.

another example is a D half diminished (D, F, Ab, C) is also a Bb9 in 1st inversion (D, Ab, C, F) and an F minor 6th in the 3rd inversion (D, F, Ab, C)

that's what Mr Beaumont means when he says "look at the notes"...he wanted you to see for yourself they were the same

which means I sort of spoiled all the fun by letting the cat out of the bag, but you asked

**Nate Miller** · 03-08-2016, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Daller94

... And that is exactly what makes me wonder.. How can a m7 chord be a 6 chord at the same time? I know how to build both chords as well as the notes found in them but when is a drop2 chord a m7 and when is it a 6 chord?

context. How it is used and how it resolves. In short, how it is presently functioning. That is the difference

**joe2758** · 03-08-2016, 12:40 PM

usually in playing you aren't given a shape and asked is this M6 or m7. You're given A-7 or CM6 and have a shape you know works for either. If you play the shape a bass player can make it A-7 or CM6 by which note they play (A or C). Context is the main thing; how is it functioning...what came before it and what comes after

**Daller94** · 03-08-2016, 12:43 PM

Hi Nate.

I know but that is not what I'm asking about (at least not what I meant.) I guess my concern is WHEN is a chord shape a 6 chord and WHEN can it function a m7 chord. My question wasn't about what scale degrees a m7 contains and what builds a 6 chord. It's more: When is that chord shape a 6 chord, when is it a m7 chord, and how can you tell?

**Daller94** · 03-08-2016, 12:44 PM

Thanks Joe, answers like that is what I was looking for

**Daller94** · 03-08-2016, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Nate Miller

context. How it is used and how it resolves. In short, how it is presently functioning. That is the difference

Thanks!, if you have an example on top of your head I would love to be enlightened further more.

Thanks every body for your answers!

**mr. beaumont** · 03-08-2016, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Daller94

Hi Nate.

I know but that is not what I'm asking about (at least not what I meant.) I guess my concern is WHEN is a chord shape a 6 chord and WHEN can it function a m7 chord. My question wasn't about what scale degrees a m7 contains and what builds a 6 chord. It's more: When is that chord shape a 6 chord, when is it a m7 chord, and how can you tell?

All about context.

So common places...m7...you might see it as a i chord in a minor key, or minor modal tune...or in major keys, you might see it as a part of a ii V I, as the ii chord.

Maj6 is often a I chord.

Chords really can't even be accurately named without context...any cluster of notes is a pitch collection with several possibilities without...

Wait til you see how cool the connection between m7b5, m6, and 9th chords are!

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-08-2016, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Daller94

Hi Nate.

I know but that is not what I'm asking about (at least not what I meant.) I guess my concern is WHEN is a chord shape a 6 chord and WHEN can it function a m7 chord. My question wasn't about what scale degrees a m7 contains and what builds a 6 chord. It's more: When is that chord shape a 6 chord, when is it a m7 chord, and how can you tell?

Originally Posted by Daller94

Thanks Joe, answers like that is what I was looking for

OK, but they're both mostly the same answer.

**Daller94** · 03-08-2016, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

All about context.

So common places...m7...you might see it as a i chord in a minor key, or minor modal tune...or in major keys, you might see it as a part of a ii V I, as the ii chord.

Maj6 is often a I chord.

Chords really can't even be accurately named without context...any cluster of notes is a pitch collection with several possibilities without...

Wait til you see how cool the connection between m7b5, m6, and 9th chords are!

Thanks a lot for putting your time in, sir. Really appreciated.

**Nate Miller** · 03-08-2016, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Daller94

Hi Nate.

I know but that is not what I'm asking about (at least not what I meant.) I guess my concern is WHEN is a chord shape a 6 chord and WHEN can it function a m7 chord. My question wasn't about what scale degrees a m7 contains and what builds a 6 chord. It's more: When is that chord shape a 6 chord, when is it a m7 chord, and how can you tell?

When is it a 6 chord and when is it a m7? the harmonic context of the tune

we must have cross posted.

Like what Joe is saying, too. what it really means to you as a guitar picker is that any shape you know for the one, you can use when the other is written in the chart. knowing these inversions that are equivalent to each other helps to improve your chord vocabulary because it just gives you more options

**KirkP** · 03-08-2016, 01:26 PM

Another way of explaining at it -- Chord names are convenient ways to describe a collection of notes, but as you've noticed one collection of notes can have multiple chord names. How you name a collection of notes depends on context (i.e., what precedes or follows). For example, Amin7 and C6 contain the same note names, but in a progression you'd name them according to their function:
Amin7, D7
G7, C6
Of course, you'd also voice them differently in these two contexts.

**Boston Joe** · 03-09-2016, 01:33 PM

It gets even more interesting when you drop the root.

**christianm77** · 03-09-2016, 02:14 PM

3rd inversion major 7 does not sound like a major 7 chord either...

Minor seventh and major sixth often serve same function. Subdominant or predominant function chord. Doesn't really matter.

When you play 2 5 1 on piano its nice to play IV IVm6 I in the right hand, while the left hand takes the 2 5 1 bass for example...

**joe2758** · 03-09-2016, 02:16 PM

probably my least favorite chord (3rd inversion maj 7)

**christianm77** · 03-09-2016, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

probably my least favorite chord

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

All about context.

So common places...m7...you might see it as a i chord in a minor key, or minor modal tune...or in major keys, you might see it as a part of a ii V I, as the ii chord.

Maj6 is often a I chord.

Chords really can't even be accurately named without context...any cluster of notes is a pitch collection with several possibilities without...

Wait til you see how cool the connection between m7b5, m6, and 9th chords are!

There is never any excuse for playing a minor seventh on a i chord. Why would you do that? ;-)

Nate, get the hose.

Seriously, the min 7 is more like a modal feeling. Its traditional use was as a subdominant chord, to explain my point above. Now we use it as a tonic minor chord too, things get a bit confusing...

**kevets** · 03-09-2016, 02:30 PM

A thing that confused me a bit is that a Major third ascending is a minor 6 descending. I get that together they complete an octave, but the change is in quality threw me.

**Nate Miller** · 03-09-2016, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Nate, get the hose.

no way in hell am I turning a hose on Mr Beaumont. You two clowns are my favorite young guys here. So you two play nice, or I'm turning the hose on the BOTH of ya's

**mr. beaumont** · 03-09-2016, 03:09 PM

Lol, when I typed that, I almost put in parenthesis (but those swing guys will kill ya for it)

**PMB** · 03-09-2016, 07:26 PM

Daller94, here's a turnaround example that might help:

Chord inversions and qualities-turnaround-example-jpg

**christianm77** · 03-10-2016, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Lol, when I typed that, I almost put in parenthesis (but those swing guys will kill ya for it)

The hose, Jeff.

It's a good distinction to realise stylistically. That said you do get much more b7 on minor chord action in swing era jazz than you'd think from the way we bang on. Check out the middle 8 of Douce Ambience for example, where the melody is Dorian over these chords. Django was freely experimenting with quartal chords and non functional chord progressions for instance...

Interestingly - Bebop I would say is also much more harmonic minor and occasionally melodic minor than it is dorian or aeolian - perhaps even more so than swing... If you view ii V's as V chords, you need never play a minor scale with a b7. Barry Harris doesn't even recognise the existence of this scale AFAIK. And melodically a jump from 7 to b6 in the harmonic minor scale is much more acceptable in bop than it would be in say, classical harmony.

But again there are exceptions.

However, in much the same way as you don't get many major 7th chords played on the guitar (unless they are resolved to a 6 or something) you don't get minor sevenths played as i chord by the guitar.... It just kind of sounds wrong... But there are exceptions as always.

To my ears, the main thing that's changed in jazz harmony over 100 years (and TBH really in the past 40 years or so) is not what scales are used, but how they are used... But that's another thread...