Chord inversions and qualities

**Boston Joe** · 03-10-2016, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

3rd inversion major 7 does not sound like a major 7 chord either...

I think third inversion anything sounds weird. A 3rd inversion dominant chord doesn't sound very dominant (at least not in a drop-2 voicing).

**joe2758** · 03-10-2016, 11:47 AM

Interesting. I don't mind dominant or minor 7 3rd inversion drop 2s, but for major7 I always either add the 9th or play the root position closed voicing that's in the same area. Everyone has preferences, that's for sure

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-10-2016, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

I think third inversion anything sounds weird. A 3rd inversion dominant chord doesn't sound very dominant (at least not in a drop-2 voicing).

I think 3rd inversion chords need some love!

G7 xx3433 doesn't sound dominant? The tritone is there clanging at the bottom. Sounds dominant to me.

And a 3rd inversion Maj7 doesn't sound like a Maj7? GMaj7 xx4433 sounds unstable by itself, but it sounds to my ear anyway, like an unstable ... Maj7.

**monk** · 03-10-2016, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

And a 3rd inversion Maj7 doesn't sound like a Maj7? GMaj7 xx4433 sounds unstable by itself, but it sounds to my ear anyway, like an unstable ... Maj7.

BDLH,
Excellent observation. The major seventh chord was once considered to be a dissonant chor that required resolution. The major seventh as a stand-alone tonic only started to gain traction in the late 1940s. Prior to that it was considered "proper" to resolve the Maj7 to the Maj6, a move that is seen in the first pages of Mickey Baker's book. Johnny Smith was still teaching this in the 1970s and it appears in The Johnny Smith Approach to Guitar.
Regards,
Jerome

**Nate Miller** · 03-10-2016, 01:07 PM

a major 7th chord really is a dissonant chord, even though we are accustomed to hearing it used as "home base". Paul Hindemith in his "Craft of Musical Composition" classifies harmonic structures from most stable to most unstable. He puts all structures containing a tritone on one side and all structures without on the other.

but structures containing major 7ths or minor 2nds are classified the most unstable on both sides. So to get something with more tension than a major 7th chord, you need to add a tritone

that is according to his system he was putting forward in "Craft"

I am mentioning this because we tend to consider major 7th chords to be stable tonic harmonies, and they are not really.

Part of what Hindemith is talking about is that harmonic stability and instability are relative to the context in which the harmonic structure is found. So a chord with a tritone and a major7th would be heard as moving toward stability if it were to move to another structure containing a tritone, but containing no 2nds or 7ths.

this is why an unstable structure like the major 7th chord is heard as being a stable tonic

its all that crazy jazz we're blowing on our way there that makes it sound stable

**christianm77** · 03-10-2016, 01:41 PM

Depending on what day it is a third inversion dominant seventh either sounds like a - well - 3rd inversion dominant seventh or a Lydian chord. I think context is important for it to sound like the former.

**edh** · 03-10-2016, 11:55 PM

@christianm77, What chord would you use in place of m7 one chord(spell check won't let me type a lower case I by itself).

**christianm77** · 03-11-2016, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by edh

@christianm77, What chord would you use in place of m7 one chord(spell check won't let me type a lower case I by itself).

Probably either a min6 (for swing stuff) or a minmaj7 (for boppy stuff.) min6/9 is also a great sound.

Also I like minors without sevenths - madd9 straight minor triads even... madd9 is a great chord for Bossa...

In terms of minor chords with the flat 7 - well nothing wrong with them, it's more a certain vibe - certain music needs that sound.... It's good to get sensitised to the differences... If you are going to play a min7 - well you can extend it, or use some type of modal cluster voicing....

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-11-2016, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Also I like minors without sevenths - madd9 straight minor triads even... madd9 is a great chord for Bossa...

+1.

Some grips I like for m(add9) are:

Em(add9): xx5452
Dm(add9): xx3755 or x8x755
Cm(add9): xx5748
Am(add9): 5795(55)

As you can see I like them with a 2nd in the voicing, either root-2 or 2-b3.
any others?

**christianm77** · 03-12-2016, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

+1.

Some grips I like for m(add9) are:

Em(add9): xx5452
Dm(add9): xx3755 or x8x755
Cm(add9): xx5748
Am(add9): 5795(55)

As you can see I like them with a 2nd in the voicing, either root-2 or 2-b3.
any others?

Nice grips! I have to say I don't use those ones much, apart from the last.

The first inversion with a 1 2 clash voicing is interesting. It probably sounds great with a bass but it's again interesting how inverting an added note chord can make it sound a lot less familiar. Which might be the effect you are aiming for....

I tend to use the classic grips, really:

5 7 9 5 5 5 (usually I play x x 9 5 5 x in a group)
x 0 2 4 1 0 (again I prune this down to x x 2 4 1 x)
x x 7 9 11 8

I tend to prefer smaller voicings on the whole, unless I really want to make a point of strumming a big 6 note chord (which can be cool!) because it's kind of easier to do voice leading. Just home right in on the clash, and maybe play a 3rd. Miss out the root often.

Rootless voicings are helpful - using a 3-9 or a chord built on the third of the chord is obviously good practice for ensemble playing. So, you would play a Cmaj7 on Am or a Cmaj7#5 if you wanted that m9/maj7 sound. The classic is, of course, the Bond chord:

x 3 2 1 0 x (Am9/maj7 no root)

But, here's a nice one:

x x 2 4 1 4

**christianm77** · 03-12-2016, 07:23 AM

Of course, you can also use permutations of the basic madd9 chord grip to generate four voicings (I haven't done this on the guitar yet, just thinking.) This approach works for any interval structure:

1 5 2 b3
2 1 b3 5
b3 2 5 1
5 b3 1 2

x 0 2 4 1 x
x 2 7 5 5 x (more playable as 7 x 7 5 5)
x 3 9 9 10 x (more playable as 8 x 9 9 10)
x 7 10 14 12 x (more playable as 12 x 10 14 12 x)

And move to any string group...

Is that how you came up with yours?

I just tried this on my guitar, some great, unfamiliar sounds and practical grips in there. I must of more of this sort of thing...

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-12-2016, 01:12 PM

I came up with my short list partly by stumbling across them, stealing them and, because I love 2nd intervals in chords, starting with a second interval and trying to fill it out.

I sometime sit in front of the piano, but too many of the ones I make up there are unplayable on guitar.

**cosmic gumbo** · 03-13-2016, 02:13 AM

Some of the chord grips in the last few posts are carnival freakshow worthy.

**kofblz** · 03-13-2016, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Wait til you see how cool the connection between m7b5, m6, and 9th chords are!

Thank you. I just did.

Am7b5 = Cm6 = F9 ?

**mr. beaumont** · 03-13-2016, 10:58 AM

That's the secret to happiness right there

**christianm77** · 03-13-2016, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

That's the secret to happiness right there

You're not wrong.

**Nate Miller** · 03-13-2016, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I came up with my short list partly by stumbling across them, stealing them and, because I love 2nd intervals in chords, starting with a second interval and trying to fill it out.

I sometime sit in front of the piano, but too many of the ones I make up there are unplayable on guitar.

I like that idea, building out from the second and the whole idea of putting the seconds in close voicing