What are some things to practice to get better at comping?

[BryBry]

I want to be really solid in my rhythm and create a solid foundation for people to solo over. I was wondering if you guys have any excercises to get better at it? Tips? Voicings aren't necessarily the problem, I've got all my drop 2 ones down, and some others. It's the rhythmic aspect.

[mr. beaumont]

Kinda hard to assess what you need to do without hearing what you CAN do.

[ronjazz]

Listening is the first thing one needs to learn. Listen hard.

[BryBry]

I sadly don't have any recordings of myself comping for a horn, which I suppose is apart of the problem... I really should make an effort to record next time. Aren't there some general excercises or something that people do?

[lammie200]

Go slow and practice with a metronome or drum machine, etc. Count and tap your foot. Listen and figure out what strokes you want to accent. Count out time that you don't play to make sure that you can jump in at a correct time.

[edh]

I'm definitely not an expert, but I listen to piano players and see how they handle situations.

[jordanklemons]

Like Jeff mentioned, it's a little tough to give advice without hearing where you're at. But going off what you said (just need to work on rhythm), I'd recommend just focusing on that.

Pick a simple rhythm - The Charleston is great for this - and comp through an entire tune using it. Maybe stick with a blues in the beginning, or even a ii V I if you need to, to keep it simple. But eventually you'll want to move towards other forms.

If you can nail that rhythm, pick another one. Start simple. Move towards more challenging rhythms... maybe something that goes over the bar lines, like constant dotted quarters. But whatever the rhythm, pick it, and stick to it.

Honestly, if you can't do this with solid, even, swinging quarter notes... that should really be the first thing.

[BryBry]

By even swinging quarter notes you essentially mean freddie green comping over tunes? I mean, I can do it, but it's not like my feel is great with it. I feel like it's kind of different then comping in quartet type setting. Yeah I was thinking of just picking 1 rhythm and doing that over changes. And just working through a shit tonne of different rhythms so I get them in my muscle memory.

[pubylakeg]

Listen very closely to this album,

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...F0B7086F35F799

or this one,

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...YGltpTBKk-UgYC

[NSJ]

There's this truly excellent player out of the west coast named Christopher Woitach. He posts a regular improv every week or every other week on Facebook. I'm telling you, it's such a joy just to listen to him play, his playing is very magical to me.

Today, I found out that he has a old TrueFire course on "jazz textures". I bought it, and watched the whole thing in one sitting. It kind of explains his way of thinking about chords, playing chords, and building chords horizontally up-and-down the neck.


All from simple structures: the first part is three note chords , The second part is dyads, or two notes. He covers a ton of material within this framework, you could devote entire months on one particular aspect . And the last part: counterpoint---years.

The second part on guide tones and dyads, I knew a lot of it already, obviously except for the counterpoint which is a Big ass juggernaut unto itself. That is because I practiced a crap load of time on harmonizing intervals ( Seconds, thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, sevenths, octaves, tenths, 13s--- he omits the last two, but I have practiced these extensively. ) He starts with Guide tones and octaves, goes through parallel motion, contrary motion, linear motion, mixing and matching intervals, even throwing in a Mick goodRick study.

The first part on three note voicings is genius. He takes 3 Essential Chord qualities, major, minor, and dominant -- starts with the 4 note drop two and drop three voicings with the sixth and fifth string routes we all know. It's a basic 251 in C.
So far, hardly anything earth shattering-- probably something we've seen 1 million times.

Then he proceeds to throw out the roots associated with each altogether, leaving the thirds, fifths, and sevenths. For example, the C major seventh Voiced 1573, when we throw out the root, leaves us with an E minor triad first inversion. He still considers that a C major seventh. For each chord quality, he examines each string one at a time in detail and tries to find out in a systematic way what other diatonic notes we can reach. When you add it up, you probably have anywhere from 10 to 13 or whatever number of voicings for each chord, all moving horizontally up-and-down the neck, from the nut to the 12th fret. He Demonstrates this on strings 23 and 4, but you can transfer the concept to all the other string sets.

It's very elegant but powerful and predicated on a very simple premise. You don't need chord books, but you have to understand the fingerboard, and you have to at least hybrid pick or finger pick. And you have to understand how the chords are built. So yeah, probably not for beginners and he doesn't baby you about the "put your finger here and put your finger there " twaddle.

So much can be done with two and three note voicings. I highly recommend people checking out this course by the excellent Portland-based guitarist , Christopher Woitach.

[smokinguit]

Then he proceeds to throw out the roots associated with each altogether, leaving the thirds, fifths, and sevenths. For example, the C major seventh Voiced 1573, when we throw out the root, leaves us with an E minor triad first inversion. He still considers that a C major seventh. For each chord quality, he examines each string one at a time in detail and tries to find out in a systematic way what other diatonic notes we can reach. When you add it up, you probably have anywhere from 10 to 13 or whatever number of voicings for each chord, all moving horizontally up-and-down the neck, from the nut to the 12th fret. He Demonstrates this on strings 23 and 4, but you can transfer the concept to all the other string sets.

This shows why we should start with triads. Map them out all over the neck. Triads is the foundation. Once you establish the root with your ears its no longer a triad. Ain't that amazing! This is the way I should've began instead of starting too complex. One book that I'm really into right now is Barry Galbraith's Guitar Comping, recommended by guitarist Brad Shepik. When I told him I needed to brush up on my comping so I can play Gone with the Wind he pointed me to that book without much hesitation, he even wrote out the fingerings for me. I've been doing the same thing by listening to the CD instead of reading the notation (great exercise for the ears). By learning how Barry does it you start to develop an ear to do it yourself, i.e. improvise.

[nado64]

First off, you need to be really unbeatable when you play on the beat.
Start your metronome, loop on a bar, and play one chord on beat 1.
after on 1-2, on 1-3, on 1-4, on 1-2-3, on 1-3-4, on 2, on 2-3, on 2-4, on 2-3-4, on 3, on 3-4 and on 4.

Try to play exactly on the beat, it's not as easy as we think.
Also, these exercises can be done by tapping the hand on the leg.

Next, you need to play outside the beat, in jazz the 4/4 is a hidden 12/8.
1.2.3-4.5.6-7.8.9-10.11.12
3,6,9 and 12 are the "&" in the "4/4" 1&-2&-3&-4&
Start your metronome, loop on a bar, and play one chord on beat 1-6.
after on 1-9, on 1-12, on 1-4-9, on 1-4-12, on 1-4-7-12, on 1-6-7, on 1-6-7-10, on 1-6-7-12,...
Select the combinaisons you like and try to work them often.

Next, you can play to move your voicings in the bar, mixing two (or more) combinaisons,...

My rule is to comp in interraction with the melody,
If the melody begins on the beat 2 or after, I can play the beat 1.
If the melody ends on a beat 1, I try to play the "&" of the beat 1 or the beat 2.
If I want accentuate a note of the melody, I try to play a note on a beat and the top note of my voicing is very consonnant with the melody note.

Listen hard just one tune which you like the comping.
Listen where the chords are played on the bar compared to the melody.
And try to derminate the combinaisons to work.

[guitarplayer007]

I'm so surprised there are very few books on how a real pro jazz guitarist would comp...I think if Reg wrote a book on comping it would be a big seller!!!!

[targuit]

One thing you could do is begin to listen carefully and play along with your favorite artists and tunes. I do not have a device to slow the tempo of a song while preserving the pitch like Transcribe, but that would be very helpful. It does depend on where you are at in your stage of technique and knowledge, but reducing songs tempo by 20% can really help you hear what is going on.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Next, you need to play outside the beat, in jazz the 4/4 is a hidden 12/8.
1.2.3-4.5.6-7.8.9-10.11.12
3,6,9 and 12 are the "&" in the "4/4" 1&-2&-3&-4&
Start your metronome, loop on a bar, and play one chord on beat 1-6.
after on 1-9, on 1-12, on 1-4-9, on 1-4-12, on 1-4-7-12, on 1-6-7, on 1-6-7-10, on 1-6-7-12,...
Select the combinaisons you like and try to work them often.

Dude, a lot of real jazz in that post. Just excellent. In my opinion, THIS is where it's really "at", in terms of the OP. I used to think that this kind of thing was more "end game" stuff. But now, I think that basically being able to feel subdivisions of the beat, especially triplets, needs to be pretty early on, to get a real jazz feel for any note value.

I always hear people say that you should learn to really play quarter notes and make them swing. It seems logical BECAUSE it's absolutely true that great players can make quarter notes swing. But the thing that's unsaid is that great players can make QUARTER NOTES swing because they subdivide the crap out of EVERYTHING mentally and feel many more subdivisions of the beat than just the quarter note. I personally think you could play quarter-notes-only for years and never "magically" arrive upon the same feel.

Learn to hear, feel, and play a basic quarter note triplet pattern, (and his offbeat brother), and you'll get swinging quarter notes for free, without working them to death. Of course, in order to really play quarter note triplets etc., you have to feel the eighth note triplets, (the 12/8 feel talked about above). After that kind of work, quarter notes feel HUGE, And you can really work different parts of the beat.

If I could go back and tell myself a couple of things out rhythm a few years ago, (I'm still working on all this), it would be things like "practice comping the rhythms of those old "riff blues" tunes from Duke Ellington etc." And that ballads can be really great work for subdivision of the beat . ( But you have to really WORK all the subdivisions, not just feel them.) These rhythms, worked out for ballads, translate to feels, later, in higher tempo tunes.

The chord melody to Penthouse Serenade is the gateway drug, by the way. It has all of the answers. All of the subdivisions... and though the tune is in 4/4, you get waltz time for "free" as an unintended consequence. Learn it straight, as if in 12/8 , with all of the subdivisions, and then, really work all of the polyrhythmic offbeat stuff as well.

Penthouse Serenade has all the answers....Waltz time,....swinging quarter notes for faster tunes later... everything.

[christianm77]

First off, you need to be really unbeatable when you play on the beat.
Start your metronome, loop on a bar, and play one chord on beat 1.
after on 1-2, on 1-3, on 1-4, on 1-2-3, on 1-3-4, on 2, on 2-3, on 2-4, on 2-3-4, on 3, on 3-4 and on 4.

Try to play exactly on the beat, it's not as easy as we think.
Also, these exercises can be done by tapping the hand on the leg.

Next, you need to play outside the beat, in jazz the 4/4 is a hidden 12/8.
1.2.3-4.5.6-7.8.9-10.11.12
3,6,9 and 12 are the "&" in the "4/4" 1&-2&-3&-4&
Start your metronome, loop on a bar, and play one chord on beat 1-6.
after on 1-9, on 1-12, on 1-4-9, on 1-4-12, on 1-4-7-12, on 1-6-7, on 1-6-7-10, on 1-6-7-12,...
Select the combinaisons you like and try to work them often.

Next, you can play to move your voicings in the bar, mixing two (or more) combinaisons,...

My rule is to comp in interraction with the melody,
If the melody begins on the beat 2 or after, I can play the beat 1.
If the melody ends on a beat 1, I try to play the "&" of the beat 1 or the beat 2.
If I want accentuate a note of the melody, I try to play a note on a beat and the top note of my voicing is very consonnant with the melody note.

Listen hard just one tune which you like the comping.
Listen where the chords are played on the bar compared to the melody.
And try to derminate the combinaisons to work.

That's the kind of post that should be encouraged - real practical practice exercises. I may well take a look at this myself.

I want to add that a fantastic exercise - probably for the intermediate to advanced students - for both soloing and comping is to overdub yourself but record your solo first. You will notice all sorts of things about ability to stay in time, stay in the form, describe the harmony, project a tempo and phrase from this.

Now, practice comping behind the solo, and record it. Listen back. Are you playing too much in either track? Is your comping supporting the soloist? Is the solo leaving enough spaces for the comping? Are you landing on the beat at the same time (feeling the beat through rests can be hard!)? What are you like to play with?

Amazing exercise, cannot recommend it enough.

Your aim as a player is to PROJECT time both as a soloist and a accompanist. It doesn't have to metronomic time per se, but you must have an understanding of the rhythms you play structurally. For this I would highly recommend Louis Bellson's Modern Reading Text, which will have the added benefit of helping your reading. I would advise practicing these exercises both straight and swung...

Also Mike Longo's Rhythmic Nature of Jazz DVDs are really good. A lot of drumming in 12/8 here... Ties in with what nado64 is saying...

[lammie200]

...I want to add that a fantastic exercise - probably for the intermediate to advanced students - for both soloing and comping is to overdub yourself but record your solo first...

This a great suggestion IMHO. I seem to have always thought in these terms to define some sort of melody first. But, approaching it from the other direction with a subtle underlying comped melodic structure can be inspiring as well.

[targuit]

[QUOTE=christianm77;615703]...

I want to add that a fantastic exercise - probably for the intermediate to advanced students - for both soloing and comping is to overdub yourself but record your solo first. You will notice all sorts of things about ability to stay in time, stay in the form, describe the harmony, project a tempo and phrase from this.

Now, practice comping behind the solo, and record it. Listen back. Are you playing too much in either track? Is your comping supporting the soloist? Is the solo leaving enough spaces for the comping? Are you landing on the beat at the same time (feeling the beat through rests can be hard!)? What are you like to play with?"

Very much in agreement with this notion. It is funny how certain 'dictums' of the recording industry tend to limit our approaches. For example, when I do home recording of a tune, I often do just what you propose, while the conventional wisdom is to lay down percussion, bass, and even a vocal before playing your solo. Lately, I like putting the solo down over a scratch vocal for the timing of the measure and to a click rhythm track before recording the rhythm track.

[Nate Miller]

Don't neglect learning tunes. I used to play chorus after chorus of a tune, just comping through the changes

try and play a whole chorus playing nothing but the 3rd and 7th of each chord. In the cycle of 5ths, 3 resolves to 7 and 7 resolves to 3

you shouldn't be moving around a lot...think of the piano player's left hand.

listen to piano player's left hand for your comp rhythms, too

[jordanklemons]

By even swinging quarter notes you essentially mean freddie green comping over tunes? I mean, I can do it, but it's not like my feel is great with it. I feel like it's kind of different then comping in quartet type setting. Yeah I was thinking of just picking 1 rhythm and doing that over changes. And just working through a shit tonne of different rhythms so I get them in my muscle memory.

Yeah, that's what I meant. The thing about doing the Freddie Green thing is that it's actually not as easy as it seems... to pull it off and make it swing hard. And even if you don't ever want to play that way in performance, if you can't feel that quarter note and make it swing there, it means you have an internal disconnect with the quarter note pulse... which won't make anything else any easier.

I prefer playing with bass players who aren't constantly just walking quarter notes... I like them to have a much more open thing happening. But no matter how open they get, they can all swing the hell out of the quarter note. It's just about an attitude and a feel.

So yeah, that would be my recommendation as a starting point if it's something you don't have a great feel with yet (based on what you said, and without having heard you). But I would also then move to other rhythms.

Rhythm is a lot like scales. Just memorizing a few rhythms is like learning a few riffs. It's great and helpful. But the goal (if you want to find a sense of freedom) is to build a connection with every subdivision of every beat within the measure. So you can feel exactly where all of them are in time. And if the basic quarter note isn't strong, then imo, that's where I'd recommend starting. Just as a means of building a stronger connection with those very important beats. Then you can move things around into different subdivisions.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Yeah, that's what I meant. The thing about doing the Freddie Green thing is that it's actually not as easy as it seems... to pull it off and make it swing hard. And even if you don't ever want to play that way in performance, if you can't feel that quarter note and make it swing there, it means you have an internal disconnect with the quarter note pulse... which won't make anything else any easier.

I prefer playing with bass players who aren't constantly just walking quarter notes... I like them to have a much more open thing happening. But no matter how open they get, they can all swing the hell out of the quarter note. It's just about an attitude and a feel.

So yeah, that would be my recommendation as a starting point if it's something you don't have a great feel with yet (based on what you said, and without having heard you). But I would also then move to other rhythms.

Rhythm is a lot like scales. Just memorizing a few rhythms is like learning a few riffs. It's great and helpful. But the goal (if you want to find a sense of freedom) is to build a connection with every subdivision of every beat within the measure. So you can feel exactly where all of them are in time. And if the basic quarter note isn't strong, then imo, that's where I'd recommend starting. Just as a means of building a stronger connection with those very important beats. Then you can move things around into different subdivisions.

I always felt that in learning to play straight CLASSICAL, the sense of "solid time" and being "locked in" on larger structures (like quarter notes, measures...phrases...) was more of a RESULT of hearing smaller subdivisions of the beat and rhythmic patterns. Jordan, you're about a million times the jazz musician I am, but I've taught beginners and volunteer musicians and groups for my entire career.

And I can ALWAYS tell who's not subdividing in their head by the way they play stinking quarter notes and eighth notes. Forget about 16th notes. They don't even exist if there aren't four of them together. But in my opinion, not being able to play quarter notes is a SYMPTOM of the other more than the real problem. As a jazz STUDENT, I feel like I got to triplets a lot later than maybe I should have.

I think as teachers, we often have biases, based on our not remembering how we came to things ourselves. From my own experience, it's more helpful to think of my beginner band days, outside of jazz, and how everything changed when I was hearing "1-ee-&-uh, 2-ee-&-uh" in my head.... underneath quarter notes or whole notes etc.

In learning play "at" a little jazz, the best thing I've done to help my time, swing, feel, everything, regardless of whether it's quarter notes etc., has been working those triplet subdivisions, polyrhythms everything. Just my opinion, formed from probably listening to more "almost" musicians than one should have to. :-)

Much respect for you. Always enjoy your posts.

[jordanklemons]

I always felt that in learning to play straight CLASSICAL, the sense of "solid time" and being "locked in" on larger structures (like quarter notes, measures...phrases...) was more of a RESULT of hearing smaller subdivisions of the beat and rhythmic patterns. Jordan, you're about a million times the jazz musician I am, but I've taught beginners and volunteer musicians and groups for my entire career.

And I can ALWAYS tell who's not subdividing in their head by the way they play stinking quarter notes and eighth notes. Forget about 16th notes. They don't even exist if there aren't four of them together. But in my opinion, not being able to play quarter notes is a SYMPTOM of the other more than the real problem. As a jazz STUDENT, I feel like I got to triplets a lot later than maybe I should have.

I think as teachers, we often have biases, based on our not remembering how we came to things ourselves. From my own experience, it's more helpful to think of my beginner band days, outside of jazz, and how everything changed when I was hearing "1-ee-&-uh, 2-ee-&-uh" in my head.... underneath quarter notes or whole notes etc.

In learning play "at" a little jazz, the best thing I've done to help my time, swing, feel, everything, regardless of whether it's quarter notes etc., has been working those triplet subdivisions, polyrhythms everything. Just my opinion, formed from probably listening to more "almost" musicians than one should have to. :-)

Much respect for you. Always enjoy your posts.

Thanks Matt. And no worries, there's no one way. I'm just offering my advice based on how I learned and what I find most important.

I had 3 plateau's along the way that helped with my sense of time. And the first came when I was playing in an old school big band and was being asked to do the Freddie Green thing. I hated it. Thought it was dumb and beneath me. And the band director never gave me the slightest compliment. This was within the 1st year of me playing jazz.

One day, for whatever reason, I realized I was sort of like an extension of the bass player, and that my role was not to compete with the pianist but to lock in tight with the bass player. Took a lot of pressure off me. And I fell in love with that idea and that roll... and that quarter note.

At the next rehearsal, I just relaxed into that role and played those quarter notes as deep as I could. I had so much fun. And it was the first time the band director complimented me. He was actually yelling at everyone for not swinging. Then he called me out and said I was the only one swinging and made the horn sections play along with me. It was the first feeling of, "Oh, I can do this swing thing," that I ever felt.

I definitely agree that the subdivisions are immensely important and must be worked on. But for me, that came after the quarter notes... both in theory and in practice. Others may have accomplished it in other ways. That was just what worked for me.

[christianm77]

Yeah, that's what I meant. The thing about doing the Freddie Green thing is that it's actually not as easy as it seems... to pull it off and make it swing hard. And even if you don't ever want to play that way in performance, if you can't feel that quarter note and make it swing there, it means you have an internal disconnect with the quarter note pulse... which won't make anything else any easier.

True dat.

[christianm77]

[QUOTE=targuit;615719]

...

I want to add that a fantastic exercise - probably for the intermediate to advanced students - for both soloing and comping is to overdub yourself but record your solo first. You will notice all sorts of things about ability to stay in time, stay in the form, describe the harmony, project a tempo and phrase from this.

Now, practice comping behind the solo, and record it. Listen back. Are you playing too much in either track? Is your comping supporting the soloist? Is the solo leaving enough spaces for the comping? Are you landing on the beat at the same time (feeling the beat through rests can be hard!)? What are you like to play with?"

Very much in agreement with this notion. It is funny how certain 'dictums' of the recording industry tend to limit our approaches. For example, when I do home recording of a tune, I often do just what you propose, while the conventional wisdom is to lay down percussion, bass, and even a vocal before playing your solo. Lately, I like putting the solo down over a scratch vocal for the timing of the measure and to a click rhythm track before recording the rhythm track.

This is kind of important, but I would highly recommend doing this particular exercise without a click.

Then you get the true idea of where your time sits.

Give it a go...

[silverfoxx]

NSJ
Thanks for the "heads up " on Christopher WoitachTruefire, I've just
Downloaded it ,also ordered the Jimmy Wyble book mentioned,
On a previous post you recommended , Garrison Fewell's books
Which I also acquired so thanks for these referrals . You certainly
have a good eye ( and ear) for top notch material.