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Would the whole concept of Harmonic Mechanisms for Guitar be less complicated with another Tuning like all 4ths or major 3rds? as far as the amount of shapes needed? would it be possible to translate it?
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09-07-2015 12:22 PM
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I'll write this in bold Start with the Guitar Method first, if you haven't already.
Here is a link to the e-book. Honestly, I use the Method for Guitar even more than the Harmonic Mechanisms. It is thinner, easier to digest, and discusses all the foundational concepts that you need if you want to make any sense of GVE's epic ode to Homer: Harmonic Mechanisms for Guitar.
Here is the link (Where I got the book):
eBook: The George Van Eps Method for Guitar - DjangoBooks.com
It's the best $10 you will ever spend on guitar literature. But you gotta study it often and go deep to get anything out of it. As I've said elsewhere on the thread, George Van Ep's Method for Guitar and Barry Galbraith's Guitar Coare my Old Testament and New Testament of guitar accompaniment. Go there first and eat it all up before you try to sift through Harmonic Mechanisms. It's kinda like reading Dubliners before attempting Ulysses. Dig?
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Barry Galbraith's book is called Guitar Comping, my laptop is having an attitude again. Damn technology. Call me the guy from that Twilight's Zone episode where all the radios and T.V.'s attack him. I hate technology!
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Shazam! $10? I saw George Van Eps about 6 months before he passed. He was very old and still very good. Luther Hughes was on upright. I took my 5 year old son (he is 22 now) and we both sat cross legged on the floor in front of the band stand in reverence like religious pilgrims worshiping a guru. My hyperactive child was very quiet under the spell George Van Eps cast that night. Ok, so....it was a cult, but a warm and fuzzy jazz guitar cult. Jazz guitar cults and hippy communes. You just don't find many of them still around....
Originally Posted by Irez87
Tunings: Several guitar players have tuned a guitar like a cello. Can't recall who they are offhand.
However, here is a handy tuning guide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_tuning
Doc
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Doc, when I go West, we GOTTA catch up. Love to hear all your stories of the greats!
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That's how I feel with Bruce Arnold. It's a cult, but a cult I am not ashamed of pledging allegiance to.
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Probably not. Material is the same either way, you're still going to have to learn all those triads. Arguably more worth it doing it in standard, considering that the fingerings Van Eps gives are a real workout for your fretting hand. Having easier fingerings due to tuning would make you miss out on that.
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I'm biased of course, but I do have several decades of playing in both standard and P4 (symmetric) tuning. While symmetric tuning requires far less shapes to learn, this doesn't mean that all the shapes are easy or that all std tuning chord spellings are available without alterations...or vice versa. Nevertheless, I've found that for any chord that standard players use there is always a work around in P4.
Although I'm unfamiliar with GVE's "Harmonic Mechanisms for Guitar" I can guarantee that you'll have to make adjustments reading through his notation if you use a different tuning as undoubtedly some of his grips won't work as written.
As for understanding harmony, a simplified fretboard map means a much reduced learning curve.
So to answer your questions, less shapes to learn would simplify everything but more book translation would also be required. You'll have to make your own judgement call. Personally I wouldn't try to learn both his books and a different tuning at the same time.
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I messed around briefly with tuning in fourths a couple of years ago. It took me less than an hour to become comfortable with triads and triad arpeggios.
The advantage of a symmetric tuning is that all of the triads are fingered the same regardless of what string set is being used. Root position, first inversion and second inversion are the same vertically and horizontally on the neck, just as they are on a piano keyboard. So for the four triads, with three inversions, one only has to learn 12 shapes.
On the other hand, easy guitaristic things that are available in standard tuning such as Freddie Green four-to-the-bar or simple strumming are more difficult in a symmetric tuning.
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"Freddie Green four-to-the-bar" chords are identical in P4 because they use the same strings. An advantage for P4 is that the Freddie Green chords translate to the higher strings without rearrangement. Originally Posted by monk
Agreed that simple strumming of CAGED type chords is more problematic. P4 players use smaller chords and string skips. It's not for everyone.
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what are your thoughts on scale shapes using p4 tuning?
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Scale shapes are logical and consistent. Single line is easier in my opinion because of the symmetry; licks on the high strings are the same on the low and the middle. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
Here's a facebook page devoted to P4 with lots of resources and helpful people:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/183968224067/
With P4, one could also reference a bass group too.
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The Van Eps books are designed around mastering the mechanical aspects of harmony on the guitar.
The mechanics are intimately linked to his fingerings designed for standard tuning.
It would be a omission to not explore alternate fingering choices in a similar detail as George
while applying the harmonic sequences to 4th tuning.
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Well, "Duh". You're correct about the rhythm chords. I don't know where my brain was when I wrote that. Thanks for the correction. Originally Posted by 4thstuning
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Yes.
Improvising should be easier as well.
I thought of converting but since I am not really a Jazz Guitarist ( no standards )
I have a lot of favorite 5 and 6 Note voicings
and for close voicings like 1 -flat3- 5 - flat7- 9 they are really hard to reach in " all fourths" tuning.
But if you were playing mostly 4 note voicings anyway - P4 ths Tuning might make even more sense.
I am playing when improvising much more vertically and for single lines P4 must be better in many ways...
So perfect 4ths is probably the least complicated and makes the most sense....
IMO .But I don't use it lol.Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-18-2015 at 10:02 PM.
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The guitar is radically simplified by using uniform fourths. All string groups become the same and you only need to learn one grip per voicing.
One guitarist in the UK who has attracted some attention for both his playing and his use of the 4ths tuning is my friend Ant Law - an excellent contemporary jazz guitarist and composer, and can be heard in his own group and Tim Garland's band. He also plays 8 string in another group (HSK trio) and the uniform 4ths thing helps, I think, as it would with electric bass...
Personally, although I have experimented with the tuning, I think the guitar loses some of its richness and history if you go regular fourths. There's something about the open strings and having a third in the middle which makes the instrument sound the way it does.Last edited by christianm77; 10-19-2015 at 09:26 AM.
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4ths is better in many ways I'm sure especially for improvising.
And trad Jazz guys mostly play 4 and 5 Note Chords anyway - right ?
I am trying to play it more like a Piano and sometimes be kind of play all five or six strings on my " Big" Chords and I have been woodshedding so long that there IS no piano player to play the other Voices in the Minor 11 Chord ( to me that means there's a flat 3rd too)...lol.
And I have a lot of really cool wide stretch pretty sounding six string chords that will go bye bye in P4 Tuning...
But I wonder if I tried it for a month if I would never go back to Normal Tuning....
In any case I am learning/ writing and consolidating too much other stuff I think to switch now...
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Are there any great guitar players who use this 4th tuning thing? Past or present? Not that Im planing to switch, it took me years to internalize chords and licks in regular tuning, and im not one whos looking to experiment ever... But just curious.
On a side note, I play(strugglingly) tenor banjo, which is tuned in 5th. Once out of frustration i tuned it like a guitar, DGBE, and it lost all its power, sounded like crap.
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You can get a plectrum banjo - different scale length? Can be tuned in fourths.... Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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When I play trad (swing) I usually play open voiced triads and shell voicings for american style stuff. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Gypsy jazz grips are a bit bigger, sometimes 4 or 5 strings - not appropriate for everything.
I did meet a guy who played Gypsy Jazz in uniform 4ths, but he gave up after a while and went back to standard. Just couldn't do the open string licks.
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I considered a plectrum, but its such a rare beast, most trad jazz guys playing tenor and ask for it if they need a banjo. And no, its not known for tuning in 4th. Originally Posted by christianm77
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11-21-2015, 06:34 PM #22destinytot GuestHey, Hep! Is tenor C G B D? Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Tenor is CGDA, that's a jazz tuning, (Irish guys use GDAE I think?). Originally Posted by destinytot
CGBD - that's actually the plectrum banjo tuning!
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prob the greatest and best known jazz tenor guitar player was tiny grimes.. he used d g b e tuning...like guitar!!
sounded pretty good!! haha
robert fripps new standard tuning is C2-G2-D3-A3-E4-G4
cheers
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