Questions about Autumn Leaves chord progressions

[fafnir]

The only chord which sticks out is B7 which should be Bmin7 to fit Em melodic scale. Unless that part alone is in Em harmonic

Forgive my ignorance, I'm a jazz beginner. This B7 is what struggles me. We keep talking about 251 in Em, but then it should be B-7, not B7, correct ? What am I missing ?

Thanks

[grahambop]

Forgive my ignorance, I'm a jazz beginner. This B7 is what struggles me. We keep talking about 251 in Em, but then it should be B-7, not B7, correct ? What am I missing ?

Thanks

The 5 Chord in a 2 5 1 progression is always a dominant chord. Hence it is B7 which is the 5 chord in relation to the 1 chord which is Em. It doesn’t matter whether it’s resolving to E minor or E major, it’s still a B7 chord.

[christianm77]

Autumn Leaves is in Em, IMO, because the song eventually winds its way around to Em at the end, and each of the B sections end in Em.

Also the melody is primarily written in the E minor mode:

Natural minor is identical to G major except for starting note
E F# G A B C D E

But we see the C# and D# (raised 6 and 7) which are typical of the minor key - in particular

Like Beautiful Love, Autumn Leaves is a melody written almost entirely in the classical melodic minor (1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 1 b7 b6 5 4 b3 2 1)

The song ends on the note E, most tunes end on the tonic (I) of whatever key the song is in.

Melody is often a better guide than harmony... Changes may change, but the melody IS the song.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Forgive my ignorance, I'm a jazz beginner. This B7 is what struggles me. We keep talking about 251 in Em, but then it should be B-7, not B7, correct ? What am I missing ?

Thanks

Yeah, natural minor isn't really the reference for analyzing harmony. V7 defines Western tonal music. In the technical sense, harmonic minor is THE "harmony" minor, and has a V7, as a result of its leading tone. Melodic (jazz) minor isn't functional the way that it's typically used, meaning that the chords built from it don't have the traditional tonic, subdominant, and dominant functions that they would in major or harmonic minor. It's mostly used for functional subs of minor or major.

Likewise, natural natural minor is modal, and is mostly used in a theoretical way, as a term of disambiguation with the other two minors, and for comparing its relationship to its relative Major Key. In the literal functional sense, as a stand-alone entity, "natural minor" is really aeolian, and not really "minor", but modal.

[grahambop]

Autumn Leaves is in Em, IMO, because the song eventually winds its way around to Em at the end, and each of the B sections end in Em.

How can such a cheerful tune with upbeat lyrics be in a minor key, I don’t ask myself.

(sarcasm not aimed at you Christian by the way!)

[ragman1]

I think it's in whatever key you play it in :-)

[der_jk]

Ok, this is what I'd say. Just play it. Don't bother tearing it apart intellectually and reducing it to confusing
symbols and hieroglyphics. How's that going to help you play it? It's music, not algebra.

Actually, what is the point of harmonic analysis anyway? A honest question... I can only find resources which kinda explain how it's done, but not why. Ok, with roman numerals it's easy to transpose and to see the relationships between chords... anything else?

Also, what is the difference, if any, between the harmonic analysis and the roman numeral analysis?

Autumn Leaves is in Em, IMO, because the song eventually winds its way around to Em at the end, and each of the B sections end in Em.

What comes first? The chord progression or the melody? Again, sincere question... did the composer first write the melody and then found the chords which work, or the other way around?

To me it doesn't seem that the melody changes between Em and G, but that since the tones are the same anyway it's kinda moot in this case... are there songs which use 215 in two scales which are not relative to each other? Would be interesting to see what happens with melody there.

[ragman1]

Actually, what is the point of harmonic analysis anyway? A honest question... I can only find resources which kinda explain how it's done, but not why. Ok, with roman numerals it's easy to transpose and to see the relationships between chords... anything else?

Also, what is the difference, if any, between the harmonic analysis and the roman numeral analysis?

I've no idea, I don't do it. I can't see the point. It's just a tune. The only 'analysis' I do is to work out what the key centres are and the probable note/scale choices. You have to do that or you'll get completely lost trying to play it.

What comes first? The chord progression or the melody? Again, sincere question... did the composer first write the melody and then found the chords which work, or the other way around?

I don't see the relevance of that at all.

To me it doesn't seem that the melody changes between Em and G

I don't see that either! Of course it does! At least, from the player's point of view. Try playing G major over the whole tune, it destroys it, there's no variation. You absolutely must make the distinction between the major and minor sections.

[christianm77]

Actually, what is the point of harmonic analysis anyway? A honest question... I can only find resources which kinda explain how it's done, but not why. Ok, with roman numerals it's easy to transpose and to see the relationships between chords... anything else?

Also, what is the difference, if any, between the harmonic analysis and the roman numeral analysis?

Good question!

Well for me the Roman Numeral thing falls under the category of 'stamp collecting' rather than 'physics' - there are a number of patterns that you'll see over and over again. Take note of these patterns and develop ways of playing through them. Makes it easier to learn lots of tunes as well.

Maybe looking at multiple charts you can see that some patterns seem interchangeable with others. For instance IV IVm I rather than IV bVII7 I. You start to develop a repertoire of chord subsitutions.

It's pretty natural actually. Unless you are totally fucking dense, you will start noticing this stuff. The point of using the numerals is that it makes it easier to compare different keys. Alternatively you could transpose everything to C major. Same difference.

Physics - well take your pick. TBH, I'm not sure how important the underlying reason why a II-V-I works are that important to playing music...

But, I like the static chord - passing dissonance - static chord model. There are a few other general principles I like too - efficient cadences containing lots resolutions by half step going up and down against each other, and so on, because I find this actual useful for understanding progressions and lines.

But Why itself is (for me) a question for theorists not musicians.

What comes first? The chord progression or the melody? Again, sincere question... did the composer first write the melody and then found the chords which work, or the other way around?

The melody should always come first in vocal standards. (Unless you are John Coltrane shoehorning in a Giant Steps cycle.)

In more modern stuff the melody is often subsidary to the chords... Part of the reason why standards are more flexible and an endless resource, perhaps... And guitarists think in chords.

Songwriters on guitar often write chords first, melody second, and jazz guitarists are no exception.

To me it doesn't seem that the melody changes between Em and G, but that since the tones are the same anyway it's kinda moot in this case... are there songs which use 215 in two scales which are not relative to each other? Would be interesting to see what happens with melody there.

I don't think it does, and the simplest explanation suffices, but I think we are able to countenance the possibility that the harmony references the relative major :-) In fact the changes to Autumn Leaves are pretty important and well known. That movement in fourths is pretty iconic (oh god I used the I word)

[Binyomin]

It is worth mentioning that Cork and Elliot call a ii V I IV progression an "overrun." The idea is that even though it arrived at the I it kept going down another fifth. I don't use the whole Lego system but I like the terms that are so catchy I don't have to work to remember them.

[christianm77]

It is worth mentioning that Cork and Elliot call a ii V I IV progression an "overrun." The idea is that even though it arrived at the I it kept going down another fifth. I don't use the whole Lego system but I like the terms that are so catchy I don't have to work to remember them.

It's a good name.

The original version of the changes didn't have the IV chord, AFAIK...

Here's the chart from the Vanilla Book, which is often pretty reliable on this stuff... I might try and source a recording as well...

http://www.ralphpatt.com/VB/a25.html

He has it in Em, BTW.

[PMB]

It's a good name.

The original version of the changes didn't have the IV chord, AFAIK...

Here's the chart from the Vanilla Book, which is often pretty reliable on this stuff... I might try and source a recording as well...

http://www.ralphpatt.com/VB/a25.html

He has it in Em, BTW.

Correct, no IV chord in the original. The first published version is in Em and most early non-vocal renditions (including Tal Farlow's celebrated off-the-cuff take) seem to be in that key. I wonder if Gm became standard after the late '50s recording by Cannonball Adderley and Miles Davis on the album, Something Else? Perhaps Cannonball initially rehearsed the tune from a concert chart with his alto sounding up a minor 3rd and he liked the transposition.

[christianm77]

Correct, no IV chord in the original. The first published version is in Em and most early non-vocal renditions (including Tal Farlow's celebrated off-the-cuff take) seem to be in that key. I wonder if Gm became standard after the late '50s recording by Cannonball Adderley and Miles Davis on the album, Something Else? Perhaps Cannonball initially rehearsed the tune from a concert chart with his alto sounding up a minor 3rd and he liked the transposition.

That's probably it...

[Reg]

The point of analysis for most on this forum...is to educate your ears. Help understand the language of music.

[Roberoo]

Although not as reliable as fep's approach, a good first check is to look at where the song ends, e.g., GM or Em. Autumn leaves ends on Em.

+1 on this. Autumn Leaves starts on the IV of E minor (A minor) and works its way to the tonic Em. You feel that E minor as a place of rest... like you have arrived where you were meant to go.

I studied with a fabulous guitar teacher in Toronto (Tony Bradan) and he always underlined the fact that nearly all American song book tunes start on the tonic chord, wander away for the tonal/key centre a bit and wander back usually over sections of 8 or 16 bars. Alternatively, he said some start from a point some distance from the tonic chord and wander back to the tonic. It gives the progression and tune a feeling of inevitability. Autumn Leaves is in the latter camp... start from afar and work your way back to a place of rest...Em..

[Roberoo]

When I gig the horn players want to play in G Minor (most say Bb) but if I play in a string,Hot Club format it is always E minor. E minor gives you those open strings and voicings... Guitar friendly.

That's probably it...

[Vladan]

How can such a cheerful tune with upbeat lyrics be in a minor key, I don’t ask myself.

Right, it's just another minor tune written in major key!

My analysis: All those chords (including G and Em) are just subbing for D7 (alt), tune is noodling around D, and because from that point it's irrelevant weather it will end with G, or Em, composer could not decide btw hey stocks, but being smart enough not to die of hunger he took from both, alternating from one to another.


Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

[christianm77]

By the way the melody often ends on the 1st degree of the key (so a bIImaj7 is often viable here.)

[christianm77]

When I gig the horn players want to play in G Minor (most say Bb) but if I play in a string,Hot Club format it is always E minor. E minor gives you those open strings and voicings... Guitar friendly.

I see it more as a fiddle thing. Guitarists just go with the key the front line calls it in.

But G is nice for the open strings, not that I do many open string licks myself.

[Roberoo]

It is funny how this tune is so frequently played up and bright when is about the end of a love affair and draws on analogies of dying nature. Yeah, swing it guys!

How can such a cheerful tune with upbeat lyrics be in a minor key, I don’t ask myself.

(sarcasm not aimed at you Christian by the way!)

[ragman1]

Cheerful? Upbeat lyrics? I haven't read the whole thread so maybe I'm missing something.

[PMB]

By the way the melody often ends on the 1st degree of the key (so a bIImaj7 is often viable here.)

One common harmonic trick is to treat the high points of each opening phrase as outlining both the 9th and the 3rd degrees. Wynton Kelly, Keith Jarrett and many others have played with this idea. The result will be a series of descending chromatic ii-Vs. So for instance in Gm, the first 4 bars could be: | C#m7 F#7 | Cm7 F7 | Bm7 E7 | Ebmaj7 |.

For blowing, the Ebmaj7 bar might be converted to Bbm7 Eb7. Or you could play Ebmaj7 here as a resting place and then proceed with | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 D7 | Abm7 Db7 | Gm7 C7 |. For the repeat, rather than play Abm7 Db7 (it clashes with the melody), you might extend your bIImaj7 approach, Christian and sub in something like | Abmaj7 Dbmaj7#11 | Gm7 | to keep the chromatic motion intact.

[christianm77]

My point was a general one about standards. Most standard melodies finish on degree 1

[mate92]

I'm new in this forum, but there are so much interesting questions and nice guitar videos here, it's super!!!
If it's possible, i would like to share with you my improvisation to the Sunny Side of the Street jazz standard:

It's a 3 years old video, but i'm very happy, when i can share it with people, thank you very much, if you listen it! Have a nice day! I'm happy to be here!

[matt.guitarteacher]

I'm new in this forum, but there are so much interesting questions and nice guitar videos here, it's super!!!
If it's possible, i would like to share with you my improvisation to the Sunny Side of the Street jazz standard:

It's a 3 years old video, but i'm very happy, when i can share it with people, thank you very much, if you listen it! Have a nice day! I'm happy to be here!

Very cool.

Why don't you start your own thread for this? More people would see it. The place for it is the "showcase" section of the forum. Go to showcase , and click "start new thread ".

nice playing. Thanks for posting.