7b9,#9,#11 chord notation

**richb2** · 10-20-2010, 04:28 AM

I just read in Levine's Jazz Theory book (page81) that the 7b9 chord is just shorthand for 7b9,#9,#11. I can't believe this. Does this mean that I can use a 7#9th chord (ie that famous Jimi Hendrix chord) in place of a chord written as 7b9 or in place of a chord written as 7#11? In that case, what is the notation when I am required to play a 7th chord with only a b9?

**gingerjazz** · 10-20-2010, 06:55 AM

The 7b9 is usually taken to indicate the half/whole diminished scale, although theres nothing to stop you playing a 7b9,#9,#11, if you can get your fingers round it i would normally play a 7b9 when it says 7b9 as levine says the symbols are chord/scale symbols . If you keep reading this should become apparent.Remember in jazz chord symbols are only guides and are often open to interpretation.Dont take every chord symbol too literally especially with regard to chords.

**gingerjazz** · 10-20-2010, 06:58 AM

Sorry i forgot about your 7#9 question yes you could use this chord allthough generally speaking the 7#9 is used as an altered chord.I was once told there are no rules in jazz, but there are things that happen a lot.Hope i havnt confused you more please ask if you want to carry this discussion on.

**richb2** · 10-20-2010, 08:07 AM

I am glad I asked. My thought is that when I see a 7b9 or a 7#9 I can play a 7#9 and play the half-whole dim over either of these. I also see the whole-half discussion to be used over a dim7 chord. Is this NOT your understanding?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-20-2010, 09:49 AM

Sounds right to me, Rich. I just mentioned the half-whole scale over a 13b9 chord in another thread, like 1 minute ago!

**Reg** · 10-20-2010, 10:32 AM

In Jazz........G7#11...generally implies Lyd.b7... G, A, B, C#, D, E, F, G... 4th degree of D melodic Min... usually, not always.
G7b5....generally implies Altered... G, Ab, A#, B, Db, Eb, F, G... 7th degree of Ab melodic Min. Altered is usually spelled, 1, b9,#9, 3, no 11th, b5, b13, b7...
Most jazz players use, for example... a G7 going to Cmin., Since G alt. and Db Lyd.b7 are the same collection of notes, for reference... both from Ab melodic min. Please don't get picky about enharmonic spelling... anyway when soloing, you can play from both harmonic areas, to help with motion... or to help express your self... Obviously... the inversion also works...
When someone notates G7b5 and is implying Lyd.b7... it could be very misleading...
G7b9 can imply 1) altered, 1,b9,#9, 3, no 11, b5, b13, b7. (some (Mark) spell b5 #11) built from 7th degree of Mel.min..
......................... 2) Har.Min 5th degree, 1, b9, 3, 11, 5, b13, b7 (sometimes called phrygian Dom.)
These are the standard implications in jazz, there are more, like the V7b9 chord in Har. Maj. and many use different sources to play from but there not what the notation implies. Jimi's #9 chord may work in some situations... usually not when chord is spelled 7#11... Best Reg

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-20-2010, 11:11 AM

Reg brings up an important point: chord notation can be sloppy and G7b5 may be written for G7#11; the thinking may be that the chord 3x342x works for both, but the chords imply different things - they imply different primary scale choices.

**gingerjazz** · 10-20-2010, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by richb2

I am glad I asked. My thought is that when I see a 7b9 or a 7#9 I can play a 7#9 and play the half-whole dim over either of these. I also see the whole-half discussion to be used over a dim7 chord. Is this NOT your understanding?

you mention in this statement about playing half/whole diminished over both 7b9 and 7#9.Im not sure if you are aware that 7#9 would normally imply to most jazz players to use the altered scale.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-20-2010, 04:39 PM

For me, the diminished scale is not my first choice over any chord, not even over a diminished seventh! But since a diminished scale shares most of the notes with the altered scale, I think the difference won't be huge unless you lean on those notes.

Ab dim: Ab Bb Cb Db Ebb(=D) Fb(=E) Gbb(=F) G Ab
G alt: G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G

The difference is in red. (hey, did the UI change?)

**richb2** · 10-20-2010, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by gingerjazz

you mention in this statement about playing half/whole diminished over both 7b9 and 7#9.Im not sure if you are aware that 7#9 would normally imply to most jazz players to use the altered scale.

What is the altered scale? Is that the same as melodic minor?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-20-2010, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by richb2

What is the altered scale? Is that the same as melodic minor?

The same set of notes as the jazz minor (the ascending part of the melodic minor):

Ab jazz minor: Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G Ab
G altered: G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G

EDIT: the lydian dominant is also a mode of a jazz minor:

D jazz minor: D E F G A B C# D
G lydian dom: G A B C# D E F G

That's one handy scale.

**richb2** · 10-20-2010, 08:21 PM

gingerjazz, playing off what? The 5th? the b2nd?

**gingerjazz** · 10-21-2010, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by richb2

gingerjazz, playing off what? The 5th? the b2nd?

rich im sorry im not sure what youre asking could you elaborate on your question and i will try to help you.I think you might have been refering to bdlh post but im not sure.

**Claudi** · 10-21-2010, 02:59 PM

The melodic minor scale is very used in jazz and most of the times I read jazzers talk about the lydian#5, the lydian dominant b7 and the altered scale (superlocrian -4). I wonder why the first chord is almost never discussed here. I mean the imin/7maj, that is 1,3min, 5, 7maj. I think that that being the 1rst chord of the scale it should be mentioned more regularly but it isn't. Why?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-21-2010, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Claudi

I wonder why the first chord is almost never discussed here. I mean the imin/7maj, that is 1,3min, 5, 7maj. I think that that being the 1rst chord of the scale it should be mentioned more regularly but it isn't. Why?

I play A jazz minor over A minor chords all the time. It doesn't have to be strictly an Amin/maj7 for it to work, to my ear. Actually, I'm not thinking strictly in terms of scales and I'm using both the minor and major sevenths. Just please don't call that the minor bebop scale

**Claudi** · 10-22-2010, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I play A jazz minor over A minor chords all the time. It doesn't have to be strictly an Amin/maj7 for it to work, to my ear. Actually, I'm not thinking strictly in terms of scales and I'm using both the minor and major sevenths. Just please don't call that the minor bebop scale

My apologies BDLH, but that's not what I mean. I'm only talking about playing a concrete chord and not the effect thing that I play this min7 chord and the other plays the maj7 when soloing.
Don't worry, I'm not into bebop by now.

**randalljazz** · 10-22-2010, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Claudi

Funny, but the Gmin7 has a nat F and in the lick I only see a nat F. No F#. What's your point?

err... Gb = F#

**Claudi** · 10-22-2010, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by randalljazz

err... Gb = F#

Damn!

I was only looking for an F# and didn't look at the Gs.

**Claudi** · 10-22-2010, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I play A jazz minor over A minor chords all the time.

Ah, you say that you play the A jazz minor over A min chords (no 7th in the chord).
Well, it's ok...but still nobody's talking about using the min/7maj chord. I suppose people use to play this as you say.