IVm vs Backdoor

[Strat-itis]

I think you meant to say:

" IT* would be nice if I could make my fucking point without being in a pedantry crossfire."

Your post still has improper syntax.

[pamosmusic]

Thanks for that. I'm capable of opening the Real Book.

Well ...

[Strat-itis]

Yup. Like you have a strict adherence to didactic truth in all instances. Get Christian in here and you'll be supporting alt facts all day. I'm dead certain my point wasn't to falsely identify backdoor dominants, nor is it the point of the thread to be able to correctly identify dominants that resolve a whole step up. That's a tough one.

[pamosmusic]

Yup. Like you have a strict adherence to didactic truth in all instances. Get Christian in here and you'll be supporting alt facts all day. I'm dead certain my point wasn't to falsely identify backdoor dominants, nor is it the point of the thread to be able to correctly identify dominants that resolve a whole step up. That's a tough one.

You’re just catching light grief for posting something that turned out to be wrong. It’s all good.

But I understand … this is very serious business.

On the real, I’ll lay off though.

[Strat-itis]

[garybaldy]

Thanks for that. I'm capable of opening the Real Book.

I saw what you did!

[Strat-itis]

[Christian Miller]

It's funny the way the records are full of alt facts.

We should tidy up jazz to get rid of things that disagree with jazz teachers. Who's with me?

[pamosmusic]

** Christian sits a desk, late at night. A single desk lamp lights the room. He hunches over an Omni Book, meticulously whiting out all the 4s over dominant chords.**

”This will make things right,” he whispers to himself, over and over. “Yes, this is better.”

[garybaldy]

** Christian sits a desk, late at night. A single desk lamp lights the room. He hunches over an Omni Book, meticulously whiting out all the 4s over dominant chords.**

”This will make things right,” he whispers to himself, over and over. “Yes, this is better.”

He's on his way to being a national treasure!

[Reg]

Yea... it's all good. I mean playing any tune over and over the same way etc... gets old. But that's work.

There are always many harmonically organized chord patterns for approaching Tonal targets. That's kind of what it is to play in a jazz style. The better one organizes "rhythmically", how one expands "harmonically", basic changes with functional movement... well the better the result can become.

There's nothing wrong with just playing the basic changes... but, I worked with a different rhythm section last night,
just guitar trio, tpt. sax and vln... audiences always seem to appreciate tunes more when we expand... standards both rhythmically as well as harmonically. Soloist almost always do ...LOL

Different gigs... different performance approaches.

[dconeill]

It seems that every iv (to tonic) is replaced by a BD dom these days.

I regret to say that I am acronym-deficient. What is a "BD"?

[garybaldy]

I regret to say that I am acronym-deficient. What is a "BD"?

Back door

[Reg]

I regret to say that I am acronym-deficient. What is a "BD"?

I'm guessing your having fun... but just in case...

Backdoor Dominants are from using.... bVII7 from the parallel Minor Key (Functional concept).

Relative Min. of Cmaj is the VI-chord, A-7. Cma D- E- Fma G7 ( A-7 ) B-7b5 Cmaj.
Ima II- III- IVma V7 ( VI-) VII-7b5 Ima

Same Key Sig. starting on the Rel.Mi. VI- chord A-7 B-7b5 Cma D- E- Fma G7
Parallel Min. of Cmaj. is Cmin. which becomes . I-7 II-7b5 bIIIma VI- V- bVIma bVII7

Same chords, just starting on the VI- chord or
the New I chord from using Parallel Minor

So the nick name has become..."Backdoor" V7 chord

The IV- chord is also "borrowed" from the Parallel Min. Key. And because we as Jazz Players use Chord Patterns all the time using similar functional concepts, (or just because we like the sound), The II- V7 two chord Chord Pattern (CP) is very standard and we use the II-7 and related V7 interchangeable... like subs etc...

Long story of how we as jazz players use Backdoor VII7 chords and where it comes from Functionally.

When you expand the Relative and Parallel concepts with Modal Interchange, (MI), you'll begin to see and hear other possible ... organization of chords.

[dconeill]

I'm guessing your having fun... but just in case...

Backdoor Dominants ...

Nope, was once voted the World's Dullest Man, apparently fun is a foreign concept to me.

Thanks for the clear explanation. I now understand BD to some degree. At least in this context.

[Christian Miller]

FWIW with Barry Harris we basically converted all IVm chords to bVII in the early stages.

He told us not to worry about the #11, but obviously that note is present in many standards where this type of chord appears. To basic byatch examples being Days of wine and Roses and Cherokee.

This note is of course the same as the major seventh on IVm, being ‘the melodic minor’ note. (It’s just one note, right?)

Sure enough if you sit down with Parker’s Ko Ko (Cherokee changes) you’ll notice every time he plays Db on the Ab7 chord. Not that Bird never play #11 on dominant - but it’s interesting how the Bebop guys tended to cut and paste the same dominant material onto every dominant. (Although Barry was more diatonic as the baseline.) You see it in relative minor too! A13 going to Dm in the key of F, for example.

These days there seems more of a tendency to relate scale choice to the melody. So we play #11 on that chord. That’s what someone like Jonathan Kreisberg would say.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CliffR]

I'm guessing your having fun... but just in case...

Backdoor Dominants are from using.... bVII7 from the parallel Minor Key (Functional concept).

Relative Min. of Cmaj is the VI-chord, A-7. Cma D- E- Fma G7 ( A-7 ) B-7b5 Cmaj.
Ima II- III- IVma V7 ( VI-) VII-7b5 Ima

Same Key Sig. starting on the Rel.Mi. VI- chord A-7 B-7b5 Cma D- E- Fma G7
Parallel Min. of Cmaj. is Cmin. which becomes . I-7 II-7b5 bIIIma VI- V- bVIma bVII7

Same chords, just starting on the VI- chord or
the New I chord from using Parallel Minor

So the nick name has become..."Backdoor" V7 chord

The IV- chord is also "borrowed" from the Parallel Min. Key. And because we as Jazz Players use Chord Patterns all the time using similar functional concepts, (or just because we like the sound), The II- V7 two chord Chord Pattern (CP) is very standard and we use the II-7 and related V7 interchangeable... like subs etc...

Long story of how we as jazz players use Backdoor VII7 chords and where it comes from Functionally.

When you expand the Relative and Parallel concepts with Modal Interchange, (MI), you'll begin to see and hear other possible ... organization of chords.

Mind blowing! And if you use the five from the relative minor of C, you end up with a G with b9, #9/b3, and b6. Is this how an altered dominant is derived?

[ragman1]

It seems that every iv (to tonic) is replaced by a BD dom these days.

I wouldn't know. Replaced by whom?

[garybaldy]

FWIW with Barry Harris we basically converted all IVm chords to bVII in the early stages.

He told us not to worry about the #11, but obviously that note is present in many standards where this type of chord appears. To basic byatch examples being Days of wine and Roses and Cherokee.

This note is of course the same as the major seventh on IVm, being ‘the melodic minor’ note. (It’s just one note, right?)

Sure enough if you sit down with Parker’s Ko Ko (Cherokee changes) you’ll notice every time he plays Db on the Ab7 chord. Not that Bird never play #11 on dominant - but it’s interesting how the Bebop guys tended to cut and paste the same dominant material onto every dominant. (Although Barry was more diatonic as the baseline.) You see it in relative minor too! A13 going to Dm in the key of F, for example.

These days there seems more of a tendency to relate scale choice to the melody. So we play #11 on that chord. That’s what someone like Jonathan Kreisberg would say.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've noticed Joe Pass play Eb - Dm7b5 - G13 - Cm in TWNBAY.
What do you think of C - E9 - A7 - Dm in All of me? I've noticed 'people' using the E9 - it's not a choice that I particularly like.

[Christian Miller]

I've noticed Joe Pass play Eb - Dm7b5 - G13 - Cm in TWNBAY.
What do you think of C - E9 - A7 - Dm in All of me? I've noticed 'people' using the E9 - it's not a choice that I particularly like.

I think Sonny Stitt played it that way IIRC?

I think these choices can sound very hip, actually. I don't use them much. I'm a bit conditioned into always playing the b9 b13 sound on the minor V.

[garybaldy]

I'm a bit conditioned into always playing the b9 b13 sound on the minor V.

And I.

[Christian Miller]

Mind blowing! And if you use the five from the relative minor of C, you end up with a G with b9, #9/b3, and b6. Is this how an altered dominant is derived?

Cliff, we used to spend quite a bit of time in lessons running the Bb7 scale down to the third of G7 and resolving to C, right?

It's the same thing.

But yes, the origin of the altered dominant is the parallel minor. The V7b9b13 chord is naturally found in the harmonic minor scale. So if you interchange major for minor, that what you have.

When you run down the borrowed Bb7 scale, you are actually playing C minor. When you go the third of G7 - B, you raise the 7th by a half step and that gives you C harmonic minor.

Backdoor = natural minor anyway.

[CliffR]

Cliff, we used to spend quite a bit of time in lessons running the Bb7 scale down to the third of G7 and resolving to C, right?

It's the same thing.

But yes, the origin of the altered dominant is the parallel minor. The V7b9b13 chord is naturally found in the harmonic minor scale. So if you interchange major for minor, that what you have.

When you run down the borrowed Bb7 scale, you are actually playing C minor. When you go the third of G7 - B, you raise the 7th by a half step and that gives you C harmonic minor.

Backdoor = natural minor anyway.

We did . But I suspect I'm slower on the uptake than you give me credit for.

[Mick-7]

"I am the IVm man" doesn't quite have the same effect.....

[PMB]

Doot, doot, doo, lookin' out my iv I.