IVm vs Backdoor

[garybaldy]

It seems that every iv (to tonic) is replaced by a BD dom these days.

[buduranus2]

It seems that every iv (to tonic) is replaced by a BD dom these days.

Next door neighbors but two distinct flavors. My preference is for the former FWIW.

[joe2758]

True. I think it's just more modern. If we are talking about what the difference is; I find it interesting that I am more likely to notice iv than BD..no idea why. One example is I use BD in blues but not iv

[garybaldy]

True. I think it's just more modern. If we are talking about what the difference is; I find it interesting that I am more likely to notice iv than BD..no idea why. One example is I use BD in blues but not iv

I'm seeing all the new lead sheets for the old tunes that I've been doing since the 70s now show the BDs. Most recent example I came across was Cherokee (bar 4 - I love the min maj 7th!). I guess the new jazz guys will never know.

[Paulie2]

Both sounds are coming out of the melodic minor scale. Its just which notes you are choosing to emphasize. To me its all one kind of sound

[pamosmusic]

It seems that every iv (to tonic) is replaced by a BD dom these days.

If by “these days” you mean “since the late 50s”

For what it’s worth though, if I’m seeing that back door ii-V, I’m playing iv every time.

[Strat-itis]

A backdoor 2-5 is just the 4 chord with a dominant next in the cycle to make a faux 2-5.

In C: F-7 / Bb7 / C

Could just be F-7 / C

[garybaldy]

A backdoor 2-5 is just the 4 chord with a dominant next in the cycle to make a faux 2-5.

In C: F-7 / Bb7 / C

Could just be F-7 / C

Yes, but the 4 chord to which you are referring is a iv7 which is not the same as the 'old fashioned' iv. ie. The iv - I seems to have disappeared in modern print and replaced with bVII - I.

[joe2758]

I don't like iv7 very much, plain or 6 is better to me

[Christian Miller]

Depends what the melody is doing?

TBH between the melody and the bass player, I'm not sure I get a say most of the time haha.

[garybaldy]

Depends what the melody is doing?

TBH between the melody and the bass player, I'm not sure I get a say most of the time haha.

Yes. So many old songs are written using iv or iv6 to compliment the melody. You look at modern printed leads sheets where its become iv7/bVII7.

[garybaldy]

Depends what the melody is doing?

TBH between the melody and the bass player, I'm not sure I get a say most of the time haha.

Yes. So many old songs are written using iv or iv6 to compliment the melody. You look at modern printed leads sheets where its become iv7/bVII7. You can't play a iv#7 over that.

[Strat-itis]

Yes, but the 4 chord to which you are referring is a iv7 which is not the same as the 'old fashioned' iv. ie. The iv - I seems to have disappeared in modern print and replaced with bVII - I.

I know. It furthers the case that they bastardize the movement that F-6 / C can be rewritten as a faux 2-5 as F-7 / Bb7 / C. One of the earliest lessons I remember was in jazz improv class in 2005 where we were playing Blue bossa and the sheet said: C-7 / C-7 / F-7 / Bb7. The teacher said that's wrong, there's no Bb7, there's only F-7.

[pamosmusic]

I know. It furthers the case that they bastardize the movement that F-6 / C can be rewritten as a faux 2-5 as F-7 / Bb7 / C. One of the earliest lessons I remember was in jazz improv class in 2005 where we were playing Blue bossa and the sheet said: C-7 / C-7 / F-7 / Bb7. The teacher said that's wrong, there's no Bb7, there's only F-7.

I hate to break it to your teacher, but Joe and Kenny disagree.

[Strat-itis]

Haha really? It was just an example. But I guess Kenny would know.

[PMB]

Not a backdoor dominant but the extended cycle Eb-7 Ab7 Db^7 Gb7 works nicely in bars 9-12.

I played a trio gig on Saturday and the bass player, who toured with Joe Henderson in the early '80s told me that Joe had added a whole series of descending changes to the tune in his later performances.

[pamosmusic]

Haha really? It was just an example. But I guess Kenny would know.

Gotta listen to the tune, not the teacher.

Trust but verify.

[Strat-itis]

He's not my teacher, it's an anecdote from 2005 if you read my post. But your advice is noted. That's one thing this forum has really taught me, probably the most important thing.

[pamosmusic]

He's not my teacher, it's an anecdote from 2005 if you read my post. But your advice is noted. That's one thing this forum has really taught me, probably the most important thing.

Oh. Just figured it was your anecdote.

[garybaldy]

I know. It furthers the case that they bastardize the movement that F-6 / C can be rewritten as a faux 2-5 as F-7 / Bb7 / C. One of the earliest lessons I remember was in jazz improv class in 2005 where we were playing Blue bossa and the sheet said: C-7 / C-7 / F-7 / Bb7. The teacher said that's wrong, there's no Bb7, there's only F-7.

the 5th bar of BB is Dm7b5 so not a BD dom movement.

[Strat-itis]

Thanks again for the theory lesson. Would be nice if I could make my fucking point without being in a pedantry crossfire. Simply saying I agree I never see minor 4 cadences written even though they're a common device in actual music. And that I think a simple way that they get bastardized is by sticking a dominant after them:

F-6 / C becomes F-7 Bb7 / C

[pamosmusic]

Thanks again for the theory lesson. Would be nice if I could make my fucking point without being in a pedantry crossfire. Simply saying I agree I never see minor 4 cadences written even though they're a common device in actual music. And that I think a simple way that they get bastardized is by sticking a dominant after them:

F-6 / C becomes F-7 Bb7 / C

Try Just Friends, Stella By Starlight, etc.

[joe2758]

I think you meant to say:

" IT* would be nice if I could make my fucking point without being in a pedantry crossfire."

[pamosmusic]

I think you meant to say:

" IT* would be nice if I could make my fucking point without being in a pedantry crossfire."

brutal

[Strat-itis]

Try Just Friends, Stella By Starlight, etc.

Thanks for that. I'm capable of opening the Real Book.