Phrygian chord

[rpjazzguitar]

If you see "C Phrygian" as chord name on a chart, how do you think about it?

C7susb9?

Dbmaj7#11?

Cm7b9 may be technically correct but it doesn't sound so good.

Eb7/C?

What is the composer likely to be thinking? Why specify it that way? For soloing? But what is he telling the comping instrument?

[Mick-7]

What is the context, the chord progression?

Cm7b9 may be technically correct but it doesn't sound so good.

It works if you omit the 5th of the chord.

[jazznylon]

Dominant with altered notes and with the perfect fifth intact. Otherwise I go off of vibes, sounds 'Spanishy'. If the fifth becomes b5 it turns into true altered which sounds more whole-toney to me.

[jazznylon]

I view phrygian as more like a tonality, that includes some scales. Kind of how some people view minor in general (for instance not just natural minor, aeolian)

[Christian Miller]

If you see "C Phrygian" as chord name on a chart, how do you think about it?

C7susb9?

Dbmaj7#11?

Cm7b9 may be technically correct but it doesn't sound so good.

Eb7/C?

I'd probably reach for the major7#11 a half step higher. Or the minor(add9) a step lower maybe. It's a classic. Effectively a 7sus4b9.

What is the composer likely to be thinking? Why specify it that way? For soloing? But what is he telling the comping instrument?

I would be thinking - would it kill you to, you know, actually specify what you want? Why do I have to be a mind reader?

All that said - I can see the value if it's a vamp or something.

Then I can do all my fancy pants Goodrick cycle or quadratonic stuff etc. A lot of the music I play atm is basically a pedal vamp on one chord, so I've been looking into this type of stuff a lot lately.

Happy to share more ideas if they are of interest.

[rpjazzguitar]

What is the context, the chord progression?



It works if you omit the 5th of the chord.

I've seen it in a few tunes. One is Mandarim by Chico Pinheiro. It's two bars before what might be called the bridge.

A bar each: Ebm9, F/Eb, Eb Phryg.

Then, two beats each, C#m9 F#7#11 heading to Bm9b5.

EDIT: 11 x 11 11 11 13
11 x 10 10 10 13
11 x 8 9 9 11 (not sure that Eb Phryg is the most obvious name, but I guess it isn't wrong)
9 x 9 9 9 11
x 9 8 9 9 8

Sounds pretty good and voice leading is smooth.


Same composer, tune is Nova. Last four of the solo section starts with Eb Phryg.

In context, the bar before is (two beats each) Fm9b5 Elyd, then Eb Phryg Eb7b9. Next bar starts with Bsus13.

EDIT: maybe x8988x x7889x x6665x x6565x

For Eb Phryg, what about just thinking Eb7susb9 or Emaj7#11?

[Reg]

It depends on the context... how it's functioning. I generally play chord patterns, so the chord pattern would reflect where I'm coming from, where I'm going... the context. Then should also reflect the tune analysis or at least how your harmonically playing the tune...

Rather than just give my answers... maybe try using the chord in a few contexts.... (Chord Patterns) with Targets, tonal targets and think about how you might develop an analysis. Or just see how your ears work... what sounds better etc...

[Christian Miller]

I've seen it in a few tunes. One is Mandarim by Chico Pinheiro. It's two bars before what might be called the bridge.

A bar each: Ebm9, F/Eb, Eb Phryg.

Then, two beats each, C#m9 F#7#11 heading to Bm9b5.

Same composer, tune is Nova. Last four of the solo section starts with Eb Phryg.

In context, the bar before is (two beats each) Fm9b5 Elyd, then Eb Phryg Eb7b9. Next bar starts with Bsus13.

For Eb Phryg, what about just thinking Eb7susb9 or Emaj7#11?

Is this a chart?

in the Mark Levine Theory Book doesn't he basically define the Phrygian chord as 7sus4b9?

So that's what I'd assume he meant short of further information. I'm assuming that's the common usage, it's also quite a Brazilian chord FWIW.

Same for F#/E as E lyd. Could also be Emaj7#11 I suppose, but F#/E has a more open quality.

[Christian Miller]

TBH Fm9b5 E lyd Eb-7b6 is a fancy way of writing C#/F F#/E B/D# which reminds of the songbook changes to Like Someone in Love - C C/G D/F# G7/F C/E. Or I-II7-V7-I with a bass line.

They're just slightly more modern voicings (and in an awkward key, sorry about the C#/F, that stuff makes me eyes bleed, but so does C#/E#...)

It strikes me that the difference between the more modern way of writing these chords is that they all end up in root position. That's the modal way of looking at things - they are all modal voicings, locrian #2, lydian, aeolian. The functional way looks at the parent chords which are pretty functional II7(#11)-V7-I(add9) - just inverted.

The modal way reminds me a bit of figured bass, which has no conception of chord inversion or chord roots and basses everything on the bass note. Which makes sense because composition went more towards the bassline thing in the 70s on... So you write from the bass... Brazilian composers of course dong that since forever.

Also parallel vs derivative (the Advancing Guitarist.)

(Or Bach vs Rameau - Rameau introducing the concept of fundamental bass (chord roots), the Bachs being highly skeptical of this new fangled idea.)

Of course there's the slash chord thing which you see in a lot of modern charts, but when I look at Kurt Rosenwinkel's charts for instance they tend to be more like this. Chico's too I guess.

[rpjazzguitar]

Is this a chart?

in the Mark Levine Theory Book doesn't he basically define the Phrygian chord as 7sus4b9?

So that's what I'd assume he meant short of further information. I'm assuming that's the common usage, it's also quite a Brazilian chord FWIW.

Same for F#/E as E lyd. Could also be Emaj7#11 I suppose, but F#/E has a more open quality.

I think Levine does the math and finds Em7b9. Then, there's a little sleight of hand and it morphs into E7susb9.

That's E G B D F vs. E A B D F. Since he does this somewhere in the book near the words "melodic minor" where all chords are the same, we accept this bit of legerdemain.

[Christian Miller]

I think Levine does the math and finds Em7b9. Then, there's a little sleight of hand and it morphs into E7susb9.

That's E G B D F vs. E A B D F. Since he does this somewhere in the book near the words "melodic minor" where all chords are the same, we accept this bit of legerdemain.

His rationale was that b6 sounds really dissonant on the -7 chord so we make it sus. Tbh the whole b6 on minor thing is a rabbit hole. Em on C is a Cmaj7 C on Em is … very tense. Or Cmaj7 in inversion.

This is the harmonic concept behind the stranger things title music

Listen to how spooky the C major 7 arpeggio sounds over the Em chord

And also the Matrix. Here we have swells of C on top of Em in the orchestra. It signals duality?

Is it Phrygian? Maybe haha. But the sus is less tense


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[Christian Miller]

(Btw my favourite thing about Don Davis’s score for the Matrix is that because quite a bit of it uses twelve tone technique Davis literally used a Matrix to compose it.)


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[rpjazzguitar]

His rationale was that b6 sounds really dissonant on the -7 chord so we make it sus.
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Adding the b9 to a m7 chord generally sounds sour to me. E G B D F doesn't sound great. My initial guess would have been that the b9 interval between the E and the F was the problem. But, Levine "solves" it, by raising the G to A. He leaves the b9 interval as it was.

I think you can hear the difference clearly with these voicings.

053200 vs 053000.

I'm not saying some really good composer or improviser couldn't make them both sound good. But the guy who can make 053000 sound good probably doesn't live near here.

[Mick-7]

The fully extended phrygian C minor chord is Cm7b9b13. You can of course omit extensions.

For example, F/Eb > Eb Phryg. > Dbm9

Could be:
F9/Eb | x-6-5-5-6-5 | > Ebm7b13 | x-6-4-6-0-6 | > Dbm9 | 9-x-6-8-0-0 |

His rationale was that b6 sounds really dissonant on the -7 chord so we make it sus.

Did you mean to say b9 rather than b6th? Because my second chord above is anything but dissonant.

Another voicing of it: Ebm7b13 (B^9/D#) | x-6-9-6-7-5 |

Or add the b9th and omit the 5th: Ebm7b9b13 | x-6-4-6-0-0 | > Dbm9 | x-4-2-4-4-0 |

[ragman1]

If you see "C Phrygian" as chord name on a chart, how do you think about it?

I think about it exactly the same as when we last had exactly the same conversation.

[Christian Miller]

Adding the b9 to a m7 chord generally sounds sour to me. E G B D F doesn't sound great. My initial guess would have been that the b9 interval between the E and the F was the problem. But, Levine "solves" it, by raising the G to A. He leaves the b9 interval as it was.

I think you can hear the difference clearly with these voicings.

053200 vs 053000.

I'm not saying some really good composer or improviser couldn't make them both sound good. But the guy who can make 053000 sound good probably doesn't live near here.

I reread the section in chapter 3 on the chord and surprisingly he just talks about b6 (C on Em). He didn’t mention the b9 here. Which I do agree sounds dissonant on the minor chord too.

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[pamosmusic]

Honestly I’d just play quartal things from C major

[mr. beaumont]

When in doubt, stack those 4ths!

Only half joking, it absolutely works.

[Mick-7]

You can't capture the phrygian/locrian dissonant minor scale intervals with straight 4th chords (they run away from them) but you can with 4/2 chords (4th + 2nd).

For example, C major/E phrygian 4/2 chord combinations - you could use the open low E string as a pedal point with these.

(b6/b9) | x-x-3-0-1-x | >> | x-x-5-2-3-x | >> (b6) | x-x-5-5-3-x | >> | x-x-7-4-5-x |

| x-x-7-7-5-x | >> (b9) | x-x-9-9-6-x | >> (b6/b9) | x-x-10-10-8-x | >> | x-x-12-9-10-x |

Vic Juris'es book, Modern Chords, is entirely about this subject: constructing chords from scale intervals and using them for comping.

[rpjazzguitar]

You can't capture the phrygian/locrian dissonant minor scale intervals with straight 4th chords (they run away from them) but you can with 4/2 chords (4th + 2nd).

For example, C major/E phrygian 4/2 chord combinations - you could use the open low E string as a pedal point with these.

(b6/b9) | x-x-3-0-1-x | >> | x-x-5-2-3-x | >> (b6) | x-x-5-5-3-x | >> | x-x-7-4-5-x |

| x-x-7-7-5-x | >> (b9) | x-x-9-9-6-x | >> (b6/b9) | x-x-10-10-8-x | >> | x-x-12-9-10-x |

Vic Juris'es book, Modern Chords, is entirely about this subject: constructing chords from scale intervals and using them for comping.

Mick, this an interesting post. I'd like to understand the mechanism better. Is it a formula that can be applied to any note in Cmajor? Nothing like an avoid note? I'm not sure I grasp it.

And, wouldn't D melodic minor work too? Presumably, as usual, per Levine, with no avoid note (if I may be so bold to use this out-of-favor descriptor).

And, then, if the chart says E phrygian, why did the composer write it that way? If they wanted 7susb9 why not say so?'

Sorry to seem so dense on this subject.

[Mick-7]

Mick, this an interesting post. I'd like to understand the mechanism better. Is it a formula that can be applied to any note in Cmajor? Nothing like an avoid note? I'm not sure I grasp it.

And, wouldn't D melodic minor work too? Presumably, as usual, per Levine, with no avoid note (if I may be so bold to use this out-of-favor descriptor).

And, then, if the chart says E phrygian, why did the composer write it that way? If they wanted 7susb9 why not say so?'

Sorry to seem so dense on this subject.

Well, you were talking about a single chord whereas what I shared there is more like vamping in phrygian mode, so two different things really.

But as I said earlier, if you presume that the ultimate phrygian chord is a min7b9b13, then the context should reveal whether you need to include the b6 and/or the b9th. As has been said, a min7b9 with all chord tones included sounds really sour (omitting the 5th of the chord is one fix for that). There are open voicings where it will sound o.k., but maybe only on the piano.

Here are Vic Juris 4/2 chords from his book, you can see that his IIIm7 chord in C major has a b6th in it (E-A-C-D) - ridiculous stretches though, I won't be using 'em.

Actually, this isn't bad: EmAddb6b9 | x-7-5-5-6-x | or | x-7-7-5-6-x | = Esusb9b13 (& F^7/E)

[rpjazzguitar]

Well, you were talking about a single chord whereas what I shared there is more like vamping in phrygian mode, so two different things really.

But as I said earlier, if you presume that the ultimate phrygian chord is a min7b9b13, then the context should reveal whether you need to include the b6 and/or the b9th. As has been said, a min7b9 with all chord tones included sounds really sour (omitting the 5th of the chord is one fix for that). There are open voicings where it will sound o.k., but maybe only on the piano.

Here are Vic Juris 4/2 chords from his book, you can see that his IIIm7 chord in C major has a b6th in it (E-A-C-D) - ridiculous stretches though, I won't be using 'em.

Actually, this isn't bad: EmAddb6b9 | x-7-5-5-6-x | or | x-7-7-5-6-x | = Esusb9b13 (& F^7/E)

Thanks, that's clearer.

When you think of vamping in phrygian mode, are you thinking third mode major scale or might you also be thinking second mode melodic minor?

[Mick-7]

When you think of vamping in phrygian mode, are you thinking third mode major scale or might you also be thinking second mode melodic minor?

Melodic minor would not have the b6th, only the b9th of the phrygian mode, I'd probably want both.

I mentioned the 4/2 chords here, in F melodic minor: Slonimsky Curiosities

I see now that not all of the Juris chords were tendon stretchers....

[Christian Miller]

Melodic minor would not have the b6th, only the b9th of the phrygian mode, I'd probably want both.

I mentioned the 4/2 chords here, in F melodic minor: Slonimsky Curiosities

I see now that not all of the Juris chords were tendon stretchers....

(Note This 4/2 structure is an inversion of a quartal triad. The other is 5/2.)


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[pamosmusic]

You can't capture the phrygian/locrian dissonant minor scale intervals with straight 4th chords (they run away from them) but you can with 4/2 chords (4th + 2nd).

Play more than one! Those Quartals sound best as smears like that.

Vic Juris'es book, Modern Chords, is entirely about this subject: constructing chords from scale intervals and using them for comping.

great book! This forum is criminally short on Vic shoutouts