Unusual chord notation

[rpjazzguitar]

In an older big band chart there are a series of chords such as
Bb+(MA7)/F#. That's how it's written on the chart. Tune is by Earl Zindars, called Vasa.

That's the first chord in the solo section. Two bars at 240bpm.

Next chord is G+(MA7)/F#, two bars. Then Db+(MA7)/F#. Then a half beat of D+(MA7)/G# leading to C+(MA7)/F#.

Then it goes to a series of minor/maj chords all over F#, with roots on E D and C. two bars each.

Let's look at the first one. Bb D F# A (any other opinions?) and
over F# in the bass.

What is the function of this chord and how would you approach soloing over it?

Later, there's another solo section which begins with A+(MA7)/B.

[pamosmusic]

Can you upload a picture?

[Mick-7]

Can't believe I've never heard of this guy! I'm hearing a lot of Maj.7#5 & #11 chords as you noted.

Track: Vasa by Earl Zindars

Earl Zindars and Bill Evans

Q: Did you write any tunes specifically for Bill Evans, like “How My Heart Sings,” or did you write tunes while you knew Bill and then he decided to play them?

Earl Zinders: “How My Heart Sings” was actually written for my wife, Anne, who puts a lot of titles to my tunes. But ultimately, most of my tunes were written with Bill in mind, in hopes that he’d play them or record them. One tune I wrote a long time ago was “Vasa.” I gave it to Bill and he took it down to one of the clubs in New York. Miles Davis came in, Bill was playing this tune and - I'll never forget this - Miles said in an inquisitive and gruff voice, “What's dat?” It was pretty far out at the time, but Bill never picked that one up and recorded it, but it got recorded later. Stan Kenton played it, too. I wrote it for big band, for the Neophonic Orchestra, and it came off nicely. It was very exciting.

[rpjazzguitar]

Here is a representative sample.

[rpjazzguitar]

The first chord feels like a tonic. For a first cut at it, third mode Gmelmin seems reasonable.

I dropped it a whole step so I could use the open low e string for the bass note. Then played 0x6553 just to hear the chord quality.

Melmin, unsurprisingly, fits.

i’m no theorist, but according to Marc Levine, all the chords generated by a melodic minor scale are the same chord. That makes the Bb+maj7 the same chord as a Gminmaj7.

So it follows that if you put the F# under it, what you’re doing is creating the sound of an F#alt. That ordinarily doesn’t sound like a tonic, but it seems to in this case.

Perhaps the fact that the F# is used as a pedal tone throughout the sequence makes a difference.

[pamosmusic]

Man. Got me.

Youre interpreting the symbols correctly for sure, but how to improvise over it … whew

There’s definitely something cool in the upper structures — D/Bb, B/G, … but then you get to F/Db but with that F# pedal still there. Maybe ignore the F# and play that movement into triads? I’d fall on my face right about there ever time.

Godspeed.

[ragman1]

This is how to solo over it. But you'll have to analyse it!

[rpjazzguitar]

The chart is 222 bars at 240bpm. Guitar is voiced with horns bars 9-28 and 159-174. About 60 bars of solo.

The chords are mostly the X+(MA7)/Y and Xmi(MA7)/Y except for F#mi7/B and Eb7#9/B and a few other more conventional chords.

There's a pedal bass below a lot of it, so listening to the bass doesn't help as much as usual. After 2 listenings I can't really feel anything about the changes, and the roots change so seemingly random that I'll either be counting or winging it badly.

I wrote in the melodic minor scales for all the maj7#5 and minmaj chords. Ignored the bass pedal. That was somewhat helpful.

Writing in the triads was more helpful. For example Bbmaj7#5 (the usual way I see this chord written) is D/Bb. Doing this revealed some chromatic movement in triads, within the bafflechords. I continued to ignore the bass pedal note.

At 240 bpm 8 beats is 2 seconds and some of the changes are 4 beats or, occasionally. one half beat. An eighth of a second? Forget those, I guess. But, for 2 seconds, a triad and your ear will get you through. And, if not, there are the melodic minor scales this tune seems to be built around.

The bright side is that all kinds of chords are happening over the bass pedal with horns blaring. The piano will be drowned out. Wrong notes from the guitar might sound just as good as right notes. That might not work over the horn parts of When The Saints Go Marching In, but it might work over this thing where everything sounds a little cacophonous to begin with.

It's tempting to show up with a whammy bar and a giant overdriven tube amp, whack all 6 strings open and play the solo by wiggling the whammy bar. (I once heard the guitarist in a band called Freaky Executives do exactly that).

Actually, once I wrote in the triads and forced myself to tap my foot only on the first beat of each bar, it started to seem manageable.

[Mick-7]

You could get through the entire thing playing whole tone scales - with some added chromatics. Many of the chords are whole tones apart, G & Db; Bb, C & D. The melodic minor scale contains 5 of the 6 notes of a whole tone scale.

[ragman1]

The chart is 222 bars at 240bpm. Guitar is voiced with horns bars 9-28 and 159-174. About 60 bars of solo.

The chords are mostly the X+(MA7)/Y and Xmi(MA7)/Y except for F#mi7/B and Eb7#9/B and a few other more conventional chords.

There's a pedal bass below a lot of it, so listening to the bass doesn't help as much as usual. After 2 listenings I can't really feel anything about the changes, and the roots change so seemingly randomly that I'll either be counting or winging it badly.

I wrote in the melodic minor scales for all the maj7#5 and minmaj chords. Ignored the bass pedal. That was somewhat helpful.

Writing in the triads was more helpful. For example Bbmaj7#5 (the usual way I see this chord written) is D/Bb. Doing this revealed some chromatic movement in triads, within the bafflechords. I continued to ignore the bass pedal note.

At 240 bpm 8 beats is 2 seconds and some of the changes are 4 beats or, occasionally. one half beat. An eighth of a second? Forget those, I guess. But, for 2 seconds, a triad and your ear will get you through. And, if not, there are the melodic minor scales this tune seems to be built around.

The bright side is that all kinds of chords are happening over the bass pedal with horns blaring. The piano will be drowned out. Wrong notes from the guitar might sound just as good as right notes. That might not work over the horn parts of When The Saints Go Marching In, but it might work over this thing where everything sounds a little cacophonous to begin with.

It's tempting to show up with a whammy bar and a giant overdriven tube amp, whack all 6 strings open and play the solo by wiggling the whammy bar. (I once heard the guitarist in a band called Freaky Executives do exactly that).

Actually, once I wrote in the triads and forced myself to tap my foot only on the first beat of each bar, it started to seem manageable.

I reckon you're a massive self-torturer whose response to a brick wall is to redouble your efforts. People like stuff they know and I bet no one knows this. Play them something they like and watch them all smile and give you a big cheer

[Jonah]

What is the function of this chord and how would you approach soloing over it?

After hearing changes a few times I was able to play over it more or less just by ear... though indeed there are some places where you have to think to avoid something indeed

[Bobby Timmons]

That's not really that hard. It's just a weird chord that repeats on a different root. Get familiar outlining that chord, then just shift it to each root. That's actually the point to sections like these in big band charts, they want it to sound like it's 1 sound just shifted. You could try lydian augmented or whole tone. Or sweep arps since it's at 240.

[pamosmusic]

I don’t think the question here is “what can I use” but “how do I make it sound good.”

EDIT: by which I mean, I don’t think the chord has been invented that is hard to improvise over. It’s the movement between chords.

[supersoul]

On the recording I hear a B pedal tone, not an F#. The chords on top are difficult, still working on them.

[rpjazzguitar]

The recording is the same tune but not the same arrangement. There is a B pedal in this arrangement, as well as an F# pedal, in different sections.

I couldn't find a recording of a big band playing this tune, although reportedly the Kenton band played it (don't know if they used this arrangement).

[Bobby Timmons]

I don’t think the question here is “what can I use” but “how do I make it sound good.”

EDIT: by which I mean, I don’t think the chord has been invented that is hard to improvise over. It’s the movement between chords.

Just shift a shape. That was my experience in big band with stuff like that. They want it to sound like one chord idea just shifted. Don't have to make it harder than it is.

[rpjazzguitar]

Bb+(MA7)/F#.

If you ignore the F# for a moment, the chord, usually written as Bbmaj7#5, is commonly covered with third mode G melodic minor. I don't know how to best characterize its function.

When you add the F# in the bass, per Mark Levine, the chord becomes 7th mode Gmelmin, aka, F#alt.

But, on the recording it sounds more like a tonic.

Until I figure out something better, I'm going to rewrite it as D/Bb and start with a D triad. If I need a fourth note, I'll add Bb. More than that, I'll think Gmelmin. But, at 240bpm there isn't much time to think.

[pamosmusic]

Just shift a shape. That was my experience in big band with stuff like that. They want it to sound like one chord idea just shifted. Don't have to make it harder than it is.

I mean, my experience has been different? I guess everything is easy if you don't need the end result to be particularly cohesive. Like, I could play Stablemates no problem if all I wanted to do was play the same pattern over all the ii-Vs, but part of what makes that tune hard is the expectation that you actually construct something coherent over the form.

And the whole tune sounds pretty non-functional in the traditional way, so you'd eventually have to decide if you want to build a solo that has cohesive melodies in it or just sound like you're hopping around from one chord to the next. Generally folks opt for the latter.

[pamosmusic]

Bb+(MA7)/F#.

If you ignore the F# for a moment, the chord, usually written as Bbmaj7#5, is commonly covered with third mode G melodic minor. I don't know how to best characterize its function.

When you add the F# in the bass, per Mark Levine, the chord becomes 7th mode Gmelmin, aka, F#alt.

But, on the recording it sounds more like a tonic.

Until I figure out something better, I'm going to rewrite it as D/Bb and start with a D triad. If I need a fourth note, I'll add Bb. More than that, I'll think Gmelmin. But, at 240bpm there isn't much time to think.

So upper structures ...

first chord: D major plus Bb
second chord: B major plus G
third chord: F major plus Db
fourth chord (just passing): F# major plus D
fifth chord: E major plus C
fifth chord (just passing): D major plus Bb
sixth chord: G+ plus E
seventh chord: F+ plus D

I think probably I'd work a lot on voiceleading and finding guide tone lines between those triads. Try and add the fourth note to each and see if I can voicelead those. I'd probably note worry about the passing chords that hit for a single beat, and I think after listening to it, I ignore the pedal. The pedal kind of disagrees with the chords, so you're going to crunch against it, but so will the chords. I think the crunch is the point, probably.

[Christian Miller]

I’m not sure if this is the answer you are looking for but I would simply solo over the chord and ignore the slash.

So this would be either the arpeggio or relevant chord scale (for example Bb lydian augmented or G mm)

It sounds better to play Emm on Em(maj7)/F# than F# Dorian b2 and it requires less thinking as well. Actually I’d do that even it was written F#sus13b9 or something.

It’s not quite the same thing but here’s a video I did about handling slash chords.

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[Christian Miller]

Re function - at first glance I’d think ‘post modal, “non functional” changes’

(But in fact there often is a functionality to these things it’s just obscured.)

Seeing something like this in a pad, I don’t think I’d worry too much about the compositional theory side, just plug and play. Often times even the composers don’t have a theory for the chords they choose…

I know I don’t when I write that type of stuff, maybe led by a bass line or a cool pedal under shifting harmonies like your example (very common in prog and fusion). I just go with what sounds good to me, or maybe use some weird sub formula on a standard or something (disguised functionality.) Perhaps intervallic symmetry.

There’s a little bit going on with the augmented triad in the chord roots here? But not totally.

OTOH it’s not necessary for my band mates to understand how I came up with the chords either.

Lastly pedal bass is usually about building tension. This is as true of a Bach fugue as it is of a Brecker Brothers fusion tune. As a result the harmonies that sit over the pedal often break the usual rules of harmony.

In the old days it might be diminished chords shifting chromatically up and down, or in modern jazz music polychords hanging out over a rhythmic ostinato. (My favourite example is when Bach has an F7 over an E bass in his prelude bwv999 haha.)

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[Christian Miller]

I’m yoinking the term ‘bafflechord’


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[Bobby Timmons]

I mean, my experience has been different? I guess everything is easy if you don't need the end result to be particularly cohesive. Like, I could play Stablemates no problem if all I wanted to do was play the same pattern over all the ii-Vs, but part of what makes that tune hard is the expectation that you actually construct something coherent over the form.

And the whole tune sounds pretty non-functional in the traditional way, so you'd eventually have to decide if you want to build a solo that has cohesive melodies in it or just sound like you're hopping around from one chord to the next. Generally folks opt for the latter.

Sequencing ideas or shifting shapes doesn't by definition make lines incoherent. Done well, it only displays more logic in your ideas. Shifting the same chord is called planing, it's a legitimate musical device. Its purpose is to sound like 1 sound is just shifted. So it's unnecessary to try to find a way to be all linear through those changes unless you purposely want to do that. Shifting your shape is the obvious first choice for soloing over harmony like that. But it's up to the player how much pattern vs natural line to use. Either approach will work. It isn't necessary to find some scale that will fit all those chromatic changes to be able to play linearly over the entire section, that won't work. Have to address each change individually whatever approach to line building you use.

[Christian Miller]

Sequences are common in jazz compositions but rarer in solos. Not unheard of .. just not as common at all.

I think jazzers find too many sequences a bit cheesy and predictable? But it’s interesting that they are accepted much more in actual tunes.


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[Bobby Timmons]

Sequences are common in jazz compositions but rarer in solos. Not unheard of .. just not as common at all.

I think jazzers find too many sequences a bit cheesy and predictable? But it’s interesting that they are accepted much more in actual tunes.

That's true. I know it's not implicit in the word, but when I use sequence, I mean either exact sequencing of a motif, or taking a motif and repeating the idea while utilizing variation or developing it.