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I didn't want to photograph too much because the chart isn't mine.
The guitar solo at bar 57 is two measures each of the following
A+(MA7)/B
Am(MA7)/B
G+(MA7)/B
Gm(MA7)/B
F#m7/B
Eb7#9/B
C+(MA7)/B (one bar)
Dmaj7/B (one bar)
Em7/B (one bar)
etc.
Now with some strategy:
A+(MA7)/B This is, more or less, Db/A so I start with a Dbmaj triad. I'm not limited to the triad. It's just that once I hear the triad in the context of the rest of the band, I'll be able to embellish with other notes by ear.
Am(MA7)/B Two notes change. The F goes to E and the Db goes to C. So, on the guitar you go from xx666x to xx655x.
G+(MA7)/B. This is, more or less, a B triad. xx444x. So, in my simplistic view, this looks like a descending line of triads. It would be three major triads in a row, descending in half steps, except for the G# in the Ammaj7.
Gm(MA7)/B. Same pattern. This is going to be xx433x
F#m7/B. Another half step down. I can play this as xx422x or as xx222x.
Eb7#9/B. Now it's my turn to get clever. This chord looks like a fragment of an A13b9#11. So, I'll play as if it's an A7, meaning I'll go from thinking of the previous chord as an Amaj triad and, for this chord, add a G.
C+(MA7)/B (one bar). This is E/C. I was thinking A7 for the previous chord, now I'm thinking Amelmin or Aminmaj7. Or, I just drop the C# to a C and maybe raise the G to a G#
Dmaj7/B (one bar). Reentry has occurred. This chord is not from outer space.
Em7/B (one bar) ditto.
The solo continues with Gminmaj7, Fminma7, Ebminmaj7 and F13#11. So, the same chord descends in whole steps for three chords (6 bars) and ends up with a Cmelmin. My first thought is to play a triad over the Gminmaj7, say, xxx332, and drop that by whole steps. The WT idea would work here.
I'd end up with D Bb Gb xx433x moving to F13#11 which could be covered with xx344x or similar.
The problem here is that the tempo doesn't permit conscious thought. So, this requires making a backing track and practicing it until it's comfortable at 240bpm
As far as the notions of sequences and how well they work, I simply don't think about stuff like that. I try to think of melody while avoiding clams. It helps to know the notes in the chords as a kind of safety net for clam avoidance. In this case, at 240 bpm with bafflechords, a triad is enough to work with. I'm unlikely to simply play a pattern in different keys, although that can sound good if it's melodic.
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10-17-2024 06:36 PM
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Better get to outling those arps.
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Well I think probably patterns are necessary here, but I’m talking about voiceleading them rather than “moving the shape.”
Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
Remember on guitar that is literal … just move the shape. So a natural problem with the ease of transposing on guitar is that when we just transpose shapes, we tend to play the same ideas a lot and things start to sound very samey even if we’re note playing literal sequences.
I had a guitar teacher once who made me play Stablemates but for every chord change I had to move in the opposite direction of the bass. So I’d play something over Em A7 and then had to take the line up the neck to Ebm Ab7, rather than down.
Playing parallel sounding lines in parallel shapes is an occupational hazard for guitar and it takes a lot of work to break the tendency.
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Yeah I teach people about sequences really early because it’s such a useful tool for understanding melody and can help people understand how to develop of a solo but it’s interesting how much real sequences stand out. Like … you don’t realize how sparingly they’re used until you hear a track where they’re used all the time. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Like Jim on this one (about 1:46):
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Most pro players would transpose and regurgitate their melodic minor patterns over a progression like this as appropriate. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
This is the sort of thing they would have learned at music college when they were 19 and have locked into muscle memory… 8 hours a day in the chops gym.
(In that golden time before they realise they aren’t going to be the next Chris Potter or Kurt Rosenwinkel on the basis of their fusion hot licks and there’s other things to be mastered about music if they want a career.)
Not saying it’s the right thing to do, but that’s what they’d do. It jazz jock stuff. Nothing to do with music but it sounds impressive and for big band solos etc that’s often the thing.
I think the more triadic/quadratonic approach offers a way for those of us who might get sand kicked in our faces. I always think the challenge is to remain melodic through such progressions.
It may also help to remind oneself that any voicing can become a line.
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rpg -
Don't say I never do anything for you! Well, you do seem determined to crack it. But I do have a question. Why do you want to improv it when the sheet says 'no solo - long tones'?
The scales are all melodic minors except the last one because of the F/F# clash. I've done some little phrases over them just to be sure the notes fit.
BbM7#5/F# ---- G mel
GM7#5/F# ---- E mel
DbM7#5/F# ---- Bb mel
DM7#5/G# ---- B mel
CM7#5/F# ---- A mel
BbM7#5/E ---- G mel
EmM7/F# ---- E mel
DmM7/F# ---- F# harm
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As it turned out, I put the chart on my stand, having never seen it before nor heard the tune. I then paused to tune my guitar and, before I was finished tuning, the leader had counted off the tune. I never had a chance even to glance at it.
It starts with 8 bars of rest for the guitar -- and I missed the count-in. The first page was all single notes which I later discovered that I could play pretty well at 120bpm. As I mentioned, the tune was at 240bpm.
I then glanced ahead and noticed for the first time that a lot of the chart was guitar solo. I was able to figure out when it was supposed to begin -- with a solo break on two bars of C9#11. Then, right into A+(MA7)/F# and so on. I immediately got lost -- decoding the chord symbol and keeping up with the harmonic rhythm at 240 was too much. I could hear the piano, so I winged it by ear. The whole band was so cacophonous (as per the chart) that the solo didn't suck as badly as it deserved.
Which brings me to the point of this post. Is this something that, say, a seasoned NYC session player would be expected to handle with aplomb? Is a player like that going to see that chord symbol and immediately think, "no problem, F#melmin". And then, two seconds later another oddball chord symbol suggesting a different melodic minor, and two seconds after that ... etc. And the two seconds is not hyperbole - 8 beats at 240bpm.
Maybe they can. The pianist in my band seemed to handle his solo.
Afterward, I used Genius Scan on my phone to scan the chart and printed it out at home. I had to figure out the melodic minors and triads and pencil them in -- to avoid actually having to think at 240 bpm. And, I still worry about losing my place while a too-limited brain tries to make melody, avoid clams and keep up with the band.
Now a plug for Genius Scan. You point the phone at the page and Genius Scan figures out when to take the picture. Then you move the phone to the next page and it figures it out again. Very quick. And, if the pages are not fully flat, it has an editing tool which can eliminate some of the waviness. And, the backgrounds seem to come out whiter than the camera app on my phone. And it's free.
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Looks like ‘PNO SOLO’ to me. Which suggests ‘piano solo’? Originally Posted by ragman1
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Right. The piano solo is right before the guitar solo. The scan posted was to present the notation not to show the harmony of the guitar solo -- but the thread evolved. Originally Posted by grahambop
Changes are similar. I posted the chords of the guitar solo separately.
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Correct, sorry. PNO as you say. There was piano on the video, as opposed to soloing as in improv. When it did get round to soloing at about 2.00 it sounded as though they'd dropped the strange chords and it was all pretty normal. Originally Posted by grahambop
So we don't really need my clip then, or do we? rpg was talking about melodic minor, esp. G mel over the BbM7#5...
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Rp is talking about a big band arrangement. Could be completely different to that video.
Anyway he has explained in another post which chords were in the guitar solo part. Sounds like they were similar.
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Right. It was a big band arrangement. I couldn't find a recording of it., Originally Posted by grahambop
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Thanks for that. Interesting to hear it that way. Originally Posted by ragman1
The chart is a Big Band chart. I couldn't find a recording of this arrangement. There's a piano solo before the guitar solo, with similar kinds of changes. I scanned that part of the chart just to show the chord notation. Later, I posted the changes for part of the guitar solo.
There are several parts to it. One of them involves much more common chords, but I didn't bother to post that part.
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Apparently Stan Kenton recorded it with a big band, but the recording does not seem to be on youtube.
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BBC News Flash Today: "A man was found dead in his home this morning clutching a guitar. Cause of death has yet to be be confirmed, however the coroner reported that his initial investigation suggests his death was caused by melodic minor poisoning. He said he had seen this scalier disease cause acute illness, but he had never known it to be lethal, and therefore it's probable that foul play was involved - perhaps with the guitar the man had in his possession." Originally Posted by ragman1
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Thanks. It's okay, I've got the idea now! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Sometimes that's the only way to do it. Work on your poker face. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I believe so. Again, it just depends what you spend time reading. Someone like Adam Rogers or Mike Moreno or whoever spends their days playing charts like this, it's just standard modern harmony. So they eat it for breakfast. But if your main bag is playing bop gigs mostly by ear, maybe you'd find it less familiar. I do know some very good jazz guitarists who aren't really readers, and aren't theoretical chord scale people at all.Which brings me to the point of this post. Is this something that, say, a seasoned NYC session player would be expected to handle with aplomb? Is a player like that going to see that chord symbol and immediately think, "no problem, F#melmin". And then, two seconds later another oddball chord symbol suggesting a different melodic minor, and two seconds after that ... etc. And the two seconds is not hyperbole - 8 beats at 240bpm.
Maybe they can. The pianist in my band seemed to handle his solo.
I wouldn't say I'm the best at this stuff, but I had a whack through it just now and it seemed OK once I’d taken a moment although I have a bit of hesitancy about the maj7+5 chords so that's something to practice. I’d probably be playing a little bit more in the ear/going for it side if I was in the position of playing it with no time to inspect the chart.
It takes practice. the first time I had to read a Kenny Wheeler chart sight unseen at a gig it did not go well. I was actually upset. But these days I have a better idea.
I like to practice by taking a modern lead sheet from a Real Book or other Fake Book (such as the Steve Swallow one) and on a DAW record the chords (with the metronome), a bass part and read a melody part and improvise a solo part. It's a fun way to practice and I believe it helps me with my reading. Not saying I can do all that at 240 haha.
Whether you go down the parallel or derived route you do have to get these things into muscle memory and automatic to some extent and there’s no shortcut for that. Understanding the theory is relatively simple.
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If the question is how to solo over something, the first thing that you might look at is the "something" itself first.
Is it more traditional functional or is it more modern complex abstract?
Is it reliably predictable or highly unpredictable?
Is it just composed or is it unusually highly crafted?
Normal humans playing highly crafted music will need to have done some investigation into the crafty changes and have found good sounding expressions of them. Exploring ways to "harmonize the chromatic scale" is a path to that exposure.
For something that is modern, complex, abstract, unpredictable, and highly crafted, your approach might also need to be more like those attributes, including the crafted aspect. To me, that means exploring the more outlying possibilities off the beaten path.
In general, that means employing the less used more complex chords as the basis from which you figure your ideas (instead of taking 7th chords and figuring ideas that express extensions and alterations, shift the basis to start with more complex or unusual chords like 6sus2b5, 11, 13sus4). These kinds of chords are found in the harmonizing the chromatic scale.
Specifically, and as mentioned by others, it is the chord changes that are the musical object of concern. In simpler music you can get a lot out of the harmonization of the major and minor scales, even more out of the harmonization of their modes, but to examine the difficult music you can extend harmonization to the chromatic change of roots. Mechanically this is not the same because there are an indefinite number of ways to harmonize chromatic movement, but doing so immediately requires extension and alteration, polychords, quartal stacks, etc. It puts you in the environment of the crafted difficult music that uses unusual chords and changes.
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I have seen Bbmaj7#5 before often enough, but over F#? And never with a + sign. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Thinking it over for a few days led me to a solution, which seems obvious in retrospect. Said crudely, “play a Bbmaj7 scale, but raise the 5th. Try to ignore the bass note until it starts to make sense”.
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Isn't F# just the raised fifth anyway? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Yes. Per Mark Levine all melodic minor chords are the same chord. So the bass note typically gives the chord its identity. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
In this case that would make the chord F#alt, but it doesn’t sound like that. It sounds like a tonic.
I admit to being confused.
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A+(MA7)/B & Am(MA7)/B = A Harmonic Major/Minor
G+(MA7)/B & Gm(MA7)/B = G Harmonic Major/Minor
F#m7/B & Eb7#9/B = E Melodic Minor (F#m7b5)
C+(MA7)/B (one bar), Dmaj7/B (one bar) & Em7/B (one bar) = D Lydian > D Major.
BbM7#5(#11) = F#7#5#9, C13#11 (no root), and probably other chord synonyms depending on how you voice the chord.Last edited by Mick-7; 10-21-2024 at 01:48 AM.
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Yeah I mean the F# is a pedal bass which can be ignored to some extent anyway. Even in traditional harmony the pedal bass can be non harmonic, that is break the usual prohibitions about harmonic clashes. The reason for this is that pedal textures are usually inherently tense. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
In terms of the chords over the top they are all obvious melodic minor applications which most working players would have dialled in since college as I say.
The chord notation is a bit janky - it would give me pause but that’s big band charts for you. Probably predates standardised chord symbols.
Practice your Lydian augmented (mode III MM) and you’ll have all you need.
Again, read through the New Real Books and so on and you’ll see some stuff.
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The bass note isn’t necessarily the root. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
As I discuss in my video, Polychords are a bit of a pain because you have to read two things at the same time. I have to practice this stuff, because it’s not dialled in for me like II V’s.
one thing I’ve learned is that you can always express the thing on the left in your line.
Otoh if the chord before the slash is complex enough to strongly imply a whole chord scale as it does here, I’d suggest that 90% of the time it’ll work fine to use that and ignore the bass note.
The exception would be highly dissonant polytonal harmony (like some of Dave Liebman’s stuff) in which case you aren’t dealing with chord scale sounds anymore anyway.
Other than that - it’s practice. Get modern charts and practice soloing and comping on them. New Real Book is good.
The other thing is that this stuff can be very composer /arranger dependent.
Lastly, professional musicians are street fighters, not martial artists (to use Duncan Lamonts metaphor.)
Getting through stuff with flow and rhythm is much more important than nailing every harmonic note. Bluffing stuff well is an essential jazz skill. We aren’t prepared to handle everything that comes up on a theory basis, so sometimes we just have to go for it, in which case confidence and rhythm is 9/10ths of the law.
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