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yeah i might have to lower the whole thing before raising the one pole, is that what you mean? i’m really green with this stuff
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03-24-2018 03:13 PM
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A guy got himself banned here? That's hilarious. He sounds like a great guy
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
It's funny you loathe Alfie because that's always been one of my favorite tunes! I actually like a lot of the Bacharach tunes although they can get a little hokey sometimes. I think I like his melodies. However, Alfie never really repeats, does it? It just keeps going and going! I do play that song and have spent a lot of time on it. I initially based my arrangement on one published by some online group called "jazz monkeys" which was in tab and not notation, but I'm sure mine has changed into something totally different.
You definitely have the skills and talent to create a nice arrangement in a matter of minutes. I do take longer to get something under my fingers. And to get the song to a place I really like it takes a long time going over and over it. So in the end mine do end up more recital pieces I guess. It's one reason my primary criterion for trying a song is I have to love it. There are some standards I know I'm supposed to know, but I'd have no interest in hearing myself (or anyone else for that matter) play them. I have some songs in my repertoire that I have worked on and can play decently (for me), but which I really can't stand hearing. That's a drag! I still make myself play them to keep them under my fingers.
Sorry I'm rambling!!
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it’s funny that guy got brought up. he had like one video on youtube and it was him playing and singing Shadow of your Smile, and it was literally one of the worst things I’ve ever heard. It was my first exposure to the tune, so it was all i could think about when i heard we’re going to do that tune. I’ll have to do a lot of listening to get that out of my head
btw i dont rag on people just to bash them, especially when they’re not here— i just thought the timing was funny
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Yes the guy would lecture us forever about his amazing classical training and knowledge, we'd urge him to post something and he'd get angry and basically had one huge outburst that got him banned. Snuck back on with a new ID but they found out and re-banned him. Originally Posted by joe2758
Shadow of your Smile is a wonderful piece, kind of the next step from Autumn Leaves if you want to work on a minor tune. It can be a ballad, a latin, a light swing tune, and I know one guy plays it as a straight ahead bop tune, so it covers the bases. It's also a good tune to trying out licks and phrases.
But yeah, you'll have to get that one version out of your head... hard to un-hear...
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One problem with "Alfie" for me is the words. I just can't wash the words out of my brain, and they are some of the most awful lyrics ever composed. the entire failed philosophy of a washed-out generation put into bad poetry set to a monotonous and erratic melody... oh well... Originally Posted by PaulW10
A guy got himself banned here? That's hilarious. He sounds like a great guy
It's funny you loathe Alfie because that's always been one of my favorite tunes! I actually like a lot of the Bacharach tunes although they can get a little hokey sometimes. I think I like his melodies. However, Alfie never really repeats, does it? It just keeps going and going! I do play that song and have spent a lot of time on it. I initially based my arrangement on one published by some online group called "jazz monkeys" which was in tab and not notation, but I'm sure mine has changed into something totally different.
You definitely have the skills and talent to create a nice arrangement in a matter of minutes. I do take longer to get something under my fingers. And to get the song to a place I really like it takes a long time going over and over it. So in the end mine do end up more recital pieces I guess. It's one reason my primary criterion for trying a song is I have to love it. There are some standards I know I'm supposed to know, but I'd have no interest in hearing myself (or anyone else for that matter) play them. I have some songs in my repertoire that I have worked on and can play decently (for me), but which I really can't stand hearing. That's a drag! I still make myself play them to keep them under my fingers.
Sorry I'm rambling!!
Thanks for the complement on doing the arrangements. I actually think that banging together a basic CM setting for a tune is what pianists do all the time. "Faking" originally mean taking a melody line and chord changes and improvising an on-the-fly arrangement. I saw pianists doing that all the time and thought "Why can't guitarists do that?" So that was one of my goals, to do a basic chords-to-melody match that could be played in fairly short order. I was actually a lot better at it about 15 years ago than I am now. the years have been cruel!
Ditto on songs we like. I will simply not try to play a song I dislike. Life's too short, and there are too many songs I do like to waste time on the ones I don't.
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Wow...I think Alfie''s words aren't bad, and the melody is brilliant! That bridge!
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I remember that guy and situation. He was maybe an extreme case of a phenomenon that pops up regularly (i.e., someone who puffs himself up as an authority and great player, but turns out to be a weak player). In can usually spot them before it reaches the point of a clips stand-off. Originally Posted by joe2758
John
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That's not the way I see Alfie at all. I see it as as a recapitulation of the film and about the title character narrowly, not any sort of larger generational or cultural theme. It's structured like a movie - its sections are more like acts than AABA song elements. The lyrics are the arc of the film's plot and Alfie's journey to understanding his own selfishness and abuse of "love." I think it's a brilliant song, but very difficult to play period, to condense and into a solo instrumental, or to translate into a vehicle for improv. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Yeah. I don't have much attention span for developing ornate arrangements with big voicing honestly. I've basically worked on being able to play things quickly from a lead sheet over memorizing and developing better arrangements. I've learned a lot from playing hundreds of tunes that way , and it's given me a different time/phrasing feel than I otherwise would have gotten I guess , but it's definitely hurt me in the voicings department. Nothing real exciting there. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Developing better voicing vocabulary is definitely on my list, but I keep inserting other things which I'm more interested in. In the last couple of years, it's been the pursuit of trying to comp for myself while soloing a chorus. In the process, I kind of have gotten sidetracked with trying to learn to improvise more generally. That was definitely my weak spot. A few years ago, I was basically just a single-chorus basic chord melody player. Now, maybe more of a chorus and a half... :-) but now I can actually see that being able to improvise something decent is an attainable future goal. Strange to be going there from CM starting point. Never know where this music will take you.
Alfie was fun...
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Let Bill fix this. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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So I've been playing around with the tune a bit today, slowing it down and while I still don't feel "fluent" with playing through the tune, I have more of a "nice" arrangement roughed out. Sorry to bother you with "in progress" clips, but I'm starting late on this one.
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Don't put words in my mouth. ;-) Originally Posted by ragman1
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Well, that lets you off the hook :-) Originally Posted by Gramps
I did it very quickly. That second Csus needs looking at
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@Ragman--not that my point of view as a beginner-knows-nothing-at-all bears any meaning here--but I like your CM playing much more than your single line stuff! You made a beautiful version, nice feeling and sounds perfectly adequate to your instrument. Your single line stuff in the PS threads for me isn't a blast, and with regard to the instrument's sound it always feels a bit off. CM seems to be your core competence!
So I wonder why you asked that question at the beginning of your video? I would like to hear more CM from you...
Robert
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I've no idea why, unless others prefer the way it sounds. I can promise you that it's not my preferred thing at all. It's quite fun to work out but I can never remember what I just played. In fact, the reason I prefer single-string is that I don't have to remember. And I'm certainly not good enough to play CM on the fly. Originally Posted by diminix
So, if I write it down I have to look at paper - which is death to playing. I hate that, peering myopically at something and trying to play it. Useless.
But it's worse than that. Even if I do get some kind of version in my head, as I'm doing it I immediately think of other ways to do it. The moment you do that you freeze or completely mess it up... and that's the end of that performance. So you start again and the same thing happens. It's torture!
There's nothing wrong with my memory, by the way, it works fine, but for creative endeavours it gets in the way. I'm absolutely no rote player.
I know there's no magic answer to it, and I'm not sure I want there to be. Ideally, I need to be a perfect copying machine. It would be wonderful!
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I prefer also Rag's chord melody style without any improvisation.
Anyway my favorite Marin Taylor is one of the best in fingersyle jazz guitar and he can do everything.
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That was really nice Ragman. I love acoustics. I grew up on them and they will always be my first love!! Originally Posted by ragman1
And this was really nice to listen to. I also like your notations in the video. That's a very nice addition to these threads! Really nice job!
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
That was really great Lawson. I really liked those voicings and feel. I also loved your tone. Sounds so nice!
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No fair. you are not allowed inside my head. The "Worse than that" paragraph above summarizes my entire life in jazz. Learning one way, playing, thinking of another way (maybe thinking of HALF of another way) and jumping into it... train wreck... Originally Posted by ragman1
I've no idea why, unless others prefer the way it sounds. I can promise you that it's not my preferred thing at all. It's quite fun to work out but I can never remember what I just played. In fact, the reason I prefer single-string is that I don't have to remember. And I'm certainly not good enough to play CM on the fly.
So, if I write it down I have to look at paper - which is death to playing. I hate that, peering myopically at something and trying to play it. Useless.
But it's worse than that. Even if I do get some kind of version in my head, as I'm doing it I immediately think of other ways to do it. The moment you do that you freeze or completely mess it up... and that's the end of that performance. So you start again and the same thing happens. It's torture!
There's nothing wrong with my memory, by the way, it works fine, but for creative endeavours it gets in the way. I'm absolutely no rote player.
I know there's no magic answer to it, and I'm not sure I want there to be. Ideally, I need to be a perfect copying machine. It would be wonderful!
You wisely stuck to what you like, I keep chasing that headless horseman of chord-melody improvisation...
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Oh, I never thought for a moment I was alone. I suppose one safe way is to find a good lead sheet and just play those harmonies, basically, and that could be memorised easily enough. But then it becomes much the same as playing a classical piece. I've done all that in my time; I started with classical. Fine for the head but then what? Originally Posted by lawson-stone
But I always thought the whole point of jazz and CM was to change things, reinterpret, re-express, and so on. I'd say that was the fun bit.
Maybe one way is to make a version, write it out, and somebody else can play it. Yes!
Last edited by ragman1; 03-26-2018 at 01:36 PM.
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A bunch of posts on this thread have got me thinking about the interesting line between a note by note arrangement and a total on the fly interpretation.
So, let's say the common goal is to improvise playing that comes out equal to what we would play if we had all the time in the world to arrange it.
Is a better way to (A) improvise all the time and increase slowly what you are able to do with that limitation of playing in the moment, or (B) make arrangements that sound how you would like to be able to improvise and slowly get faster and faster at making them until you are creating them in time
The obvious answer is both. can we skip that? What do you do more of? I lean toward B for sure, but of course do both
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Oh, I never thought for a moment I was alone. I suppose one safe way is to find a good lead sheet and just play those harmonies, basically, and that could be memorised easily enough. But then it becomes much the same as playing a classical piece. I've done all that in my time; I started with classical. Fine for the head but then what?
But I always thought the whole point of jazz and CM was to change things, reinterpret, re-express, and so on. I'd say that was the fun bit.
Maybe one way is to make a version, write it out, and somebody else can play it. Yes!
But even taking "regular" jazz tunes, you rarely hear them played the same by any two players, even if they use the same lead sheet and standard voicings (unlike classical guitar in which it's hard to distinguish players, for me anyway).
In a way though jazz puts similar limits on itself as classical music in terms of having a fairly rigid repertoire. If the song's not a jazz song, then it's not jazz.
One of the enjoyable things I get from listening to a good jazz player is when he/she takes an unexpected non-jazz tune and makes it their own using jazz tools and techniques. I heard Robert Conti say he loves taking old cowboy songs and jazzing them up!
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I think it comes down to the style of the player. Some players are primarily arrangers and some are primarily improvisers. Typically it seems there is a stronger skill for each person. It's where their interests and priorities lie. Personally I prefer hearing someone play who has given some thought first to what is going to come out. That's just me. I know there are some who really love hearing on the fly playing. Originally Posted by joe2758
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Yes interesting question. I try these days to do an arrangement of the melody, but then do an improvised chorus as well. It’s quite difficult though, still working on it. It kind of ends up being semi-improvised really, I have to get a sort of road map of it first.
I do find that arranging the melody is getting quicker for me now though, seems as though each one is done a bit quicker than the previous one.
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I don't think these are mutually exclusive, and improvising certainly isn't just playing "on the fly." I think that taking time to create, if not full arrangements, certainly reasonably thought-out settings of a tune is important because you can explore new ideas without putting a live performance at risk. The goal, though, for me, is not to create a memorized arrangement I can recite (though I've done that), but to internalize a vocabulary of chord-melody improvisation just like line playing involves internalizing a vocabulary. You learn how to weave a melody over a ii-V-I, then how to weave that melody over standard substitutions, then maybe how to work it over a chromatically descending bass line, or a pedal tone, for with walking bass, or switch the octave, melody low, chord accents on top; or with 2-note intervals, parallel intervals, then more divergent moving intervals. All this stuff can be worked out doing arrangements, but the goal is to learn them as playing vocabulary. Originally Posted by joe2758
then when we "play" a song, all that is in our heads and ears, and we can play through the song drawing creatively on all this internalized vocabulary. Of course, we develop our preferred devices with particular songs, but it's still fun to break a tune down into vocabulary segments and try to see how many different ways you could play it.
Improvisation isn't dead-spontaneous playing; it's the spontaneous matching of our internalized vocabulary acquired through work and practice with the musical inspiration of the moment.
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