Solo guitar tune #1 - Days of Wine and Roses

[lawson-stone]

Someone playing from the Joe Pass Chord Solos Book.

I don't hear the melody that well at all.

Well... because it's not intended to be an arrangement. These are improvised chord-melody solos based on the changes to the standards for which they are named. Joe evidently played these for this publication (not for general commercial release) and someone transcribed them for this book.

The nature of these solos is explicitly identified in the preface to the book. So the reason you don't hear the melody is because you are not supposed to. It's not there.

That also explains why the tune titles are truncated and no copyright notices appear. These are basically chord-melody contrafacts based on the changes to each tune.

[John A.]

That was great John. I really liked this take in key of C. It really works. I wonder how all the lead sheets and real books etc. all decided that the song was in F to begin with?

I like to change keys to one that works best for me, especially if playing solo. It's amazing how different a guitar can sound for the same song when different keys are used.

Actually, I stand corrected. The original theme from the movie is in F. But there are definitely versions in C from a few singers. "What tunes are in which keys and how did they get that way?" is a mysterious subject. I like to try tunes in different keys, but also try to know the one most commonly played.

John

[lawson-stone]

Hi everyone
Having had the Joe Pass Chord Solos book for ages, i started working through "Wine and Roses" which is 3 complete choruses of chord-melody improvisation based on the changes to our tune.

I numbered each "stack" chord on the notation and created a sheet of block diagrams to go with it. I can't distribute the page of notation, unfortunately, but I'm happy to post here page 1 (mm. 1-16) of my block diagrams. If you work with the notation, you can probably figure out what block diagram goes with what stack of notes. I also don't repeat a diagram, so that will need attention in a few places.

I'd love some feedback on this from anyone who tries to use it. Maybe there are better grips? I might have erred in my reading of the notation? Hopefully this will encourage our improvisational aspect of learning this standard.

[lawson-stone]

thanks for the nudge Graham.

For people who don't have the book, or who, like me, can't read well enough to study a long CM arrangement by reading (and possibly don't want to either), this guy is doing the full take.

I wouldn't say it's on a par with Joe's (2 that I know of) "real" versions, but after all it it's aimed at students, and this guy is doing a faithful repro...

... let me qualify that - rhythmically it's doing what's in the book, and the dots in each bar are going in the same direction as the music - I haven't checked every single voicing, and it would take me all year to do that!

I've been working on this as well and so far, it looks like he's done a good job with accuracy in playing this. Plus, when I'm hacking through it, it definitely does NOT sound like Joe Pass; but when this guy plays it, I'm reminded of Joe's playing on CDs like "Intercontinental" and "Eximious." this is a plenty good enough reference for those of us who can do maybe 60% by notation and correct ourselves by 40% listening to someone play it.

[lawson-stone]

So this isn't a radically new approach, though I have a few more nice voicings in there; but I was working today on my old DeArmond Guitar Mike and the Gibson L50, the latter is also the same age as me! I was checking the newly refurbished (by me) pickup system and playing around with this tune; thought I'd post this clip to keep representing the "it's okay to play this as a medium swing using simpler chords" position!

Seriously, working with this 56 year old tune, on a 63 year old guitar with a 60 year old frizzy pickup with it's clicks, gaps, pops and buzzes... not to mention the brain-cell outages of the 63 year old player... is just FUN.

[Doublea A]

Joe Pass Chord Solos. It has a slightly creepy drawing of Joe's eyes, nose and moustache (and not much else) on the cover.

Like sunnyside, I have trouble reading the chords quickly enough to make sense of the musical 'line'. It does help to hear someone else play it through. It's long too, several choruses I think.

I actually have this book in my archives. I don't think that I have ever cracked the cover.

[lawson-stone]

And guys... this isn't strictly solo guitar, but our own forum member "Fred Archtop" has a wonderful chord-melody performance of this tune here. He has bass/drums backing, but the chordal devices are all excellent and worth appropriating for our own nefarious solo guitar purposes!

[Gramps]

And guys... this isn't strictly solo guitar, but our own forum member "Fred Archtop" has a wonderful chord-melody performance of this tune here. He has bass/drums backing, but the chordal devices are all excellent and worth appropriating for our own nefarious solo guitar purposes!

Ok, that's it. Now I have to learn the song.

Great performance and great tone.

[pkirk]

Like sunnyside, I have trouble reading the chords quickly enough to make sense of the musical 'line'. It does help to hear someone else play it through. It's long too, several choruses I think.

Hey Graham: the problem is that the first tune in the book, Misty, is a ballad that is mostly played in double time, but written out in "single" time. So all the time values are halved essentially and it is unfamiliar to read when you are used to the notation of swinging 8th notes. But the other tunes aren't that hard to read. My guess is many people try page 1, get discouraged, and never get to the easier goldmine which follows. (I've certainly done that with books I wasn't ready for).

[Doublea A]

Here is my version

Chord Melody

Here is my explanation of the Chord Melody

Chord Melody Explained

Tell me what you think

[grahambop]

It's probably a subject for another discussion, but my focus on sight-reading for 2 years a few years ago has completely changed my approach to practicing, not to mention eliminated most stress when I play with others. I can now much more easily tap the huge jazz guitar (and jazz more generally) literature out there, and get usable stuff right away. Did you check out the Peter Bernstein comping transcription that PMB did? that one chorus contains more useful stuff than 10,000 posts in this forum.

I know that most guitar players are allergic to sight reading. But Graham, you are a great player; I'm sure if you focused on reading for a few months you'd be really appreciative of the rewards.

Oh I'm not against reading, I just need to do it more often, that's all. I learned to read way back when I had classical guitar lessons age 12 (!) so I can do it. One problem is that my ear is very fast, I can get anything by ear almost immediately, I have always been able to do that for some reason (quite handy for jazz though!).

The Joe Pass book would make good reading practice with all those stacked chords.

[John A.]

I had a few minutes to spare, so here's a quick explanation of how I approached this version (gee, maybe I should do all 12 keys ... NOT).

Comments, critiques, and questions welcome.

John

After my first attempt, I started messing around with DoWaR in C ....

[PaulW10]

So this isn't a radically new approach, though I have a few more nice voicings in there; but I was working today on my old DeArmond Guitar Mike and the Gibson L50, the latter is also the same age as me! I was checking the newly refurbished (by me) pickup system and playing around with this tune; thought I'd post this clip to keep representing the "it's okay to play this as a medium swing using simpler chords" position!

Seriously, working with this 56 year old tune, on a 63 year old guitar with a 60 year old frizzy pickup with it's clicks, gaps, pops and buzzes... not to mention the brain-cell outages of the 63 year old player... is just FUN.

It IS fun to hear as well! Nice chord changes and that guitar sounds great in this clip.

[PaulW10]

Here is my version

Chord Melody

Here is my explanation of the Chord Melody

Chord Melody Explained

Tell me what you think

Thanks for the video (really nice) and the explanations (very helpful). I like your idea of finding an intro from the middle measures. I've never thought to try that. Also many of your substitutions were tritone subs, right? I've been trying to use them more and more as I've learned how to spot them on the guitar on the fly.

[PaulW10]

I had a few minutes to spare, so here's a quick explanation of how I approached this version (gee, maybe I should do all 12 keys ... NOT).

Comments, critiques, and questions welcome.

John

Thanks for taking the time to explain it John! I really like the dissonant chords you're able to find and apply. They make it sound very hip!

Also I believe you've mentioned that the key of C was not correct and that F was used in the movie version? That raises one question I've always had and I remember some discussions in the past. How do we determine what key is right in an iconic song? And does it really matter to a lot of people what the key is (other than singers of course)?

I know Lawson posted Henry Mancini doing it and I suppose he probably knew the song pretty well!! I didn't check what key he used in that recording. Whatever key the composer used, I have a feeling each vocalist over the years tweaked each song's key to make it right for them. For me, I typically read each melody line up an octave when playing from music, so if the melody goes much higher than G, meaning I'm now at the 15th fret on the high E string, I'm probably going to take the key down to where it's comfortable.

[Doublea A]

Thanks for the video (really nice) and the explanations (very helpful). I like your idea of finding an intro from the middle measures. I've never thought to try that. Also many of your substitutions were tritone subs, right? I've been trying to use them more and more as I've learned how to spot them on the guitar on the fly.

Some of my substitutions are Tritone subs. They are easier to spot when they are part of 2 - 5 - 1 or a 3 - 6 - 2 - 5 - 1.
Some of my substitutions are harmonic substitutions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[John A.]

Thanks for taking the time to explain it John! I really like the dissonant chords you're able to find and apply. They make it sound very hip!

Thanks all to you for kicking this off. I'm having a blast playing and listening.

Also I believe you've mentioned that the key of C was not correct and that F was used in the movie version? That raises one question I've always had and I remember some discussions in the past. How do we determine what key is right in an iconic song? And does it really matter to a lot of people what the key is (other than singers of course)?

IMO, there's no "right" key. As long as everybody playing knows it in whatever key is called and it sounds good, that's fine. But lots of people disagree. Among more "old school" players, there's the "standard" key for a tune, which is often, but not always the composer's original key. If you go to an open jam session, that's the key you're supposed to call, and if you call a different key, you might catch some flak. There's no official list; you're supposed to just know from having sat in a lot. Real Book changes and/or keys are in some cases different from different standard changes and/or key. So calling, say Green Dolphin Street in C (RB) instead of Eb (standard) can result in flak^2 because of anti-RB-ism (mulitpled by wrong-key-ism). If you're a singer the etiquette is to bring a chart in the key you're using if it's not the standard. Some of this lore/etiquette is changing because of iRealPro and the ability to call up changes in any key, though. In your own arrangements or gigs, call whatever key you want.

I know Lawson posted Henry Mancini doing it and I suppose he probably knew the song pretty well!! I didn't check what key he used in that recording. Whatever key the composer used, I have a feeling each vocalist over the years tweaked each song's key to make it right for them. For me, I typically read each melody line up an octave when playing from music, so if the melody goes much higher than G, meaning I'm now at the 15th fret on the high E string, I'm probably going to take the key down to where it's comfortable.

That's from the movie, in F (intro in Eb). I had an idea it was in C because a singer I know calls it in C, and I picked it up from the RB and assumed therefore the singer was picking the standard key and I was a benighted RealBooker. I was disabused of this after I posted my video.

As far as octaves are concerned, guitar is a transposing instrument; what we see notated as middle C in a score specifically written for guitar is actually an octave below a piano's middle C. So transposing up an octave from a score not specifically written for guitar is the correct move, but I find myself shifting octaves up and down a lot just to fit within the guitar's range and am not strict about playing in the written octave.


John

[PaulW10]

Thanks all to you for kicking this off. I'm having a blast playing and listening.

IMO, there's no "right" key. As long as everybody playing knows it in whatever key is called and it sounds good, that's fine. But lots of people disagree. Among more "old school" players, there's the "standard" key for a tune, which is often, but not always the composer's original key. If you go to an open jam session, that's the key you're supposed to call, and if you call a different key, you might catch some flak. There's no official list; you're supposed to just know from having sat in a lot. Real Book changes and/or keys are in some cases different from different standard changes and/or key. So calling, say Green Dolphin Street in C (RB) instead of Eb (standard) can result in flak^2 because of anti-RB-ism (mulitpled by wrong-key-ism). If you're a singer the etiquette is to bring a chart in the key you're using if it's not the standard. Some of this lore/etiquette is changing because of iRealPro and the ability to call up changes in any key, though. In your own arrangements or gigs, call whatever key you want.

This is really interesting to learn as jazz jam sessions are foreign to me. It does explain why a lot of jazz enthusiasts only want to work on the jazz repertoire if you're expected to just know this kind of stuff (i.e. the original key)! And I guess the Real Book isn't that real, huh? But it appears the primary reason to use the "real" key is because that's how everyone already knows it. So if iRealPro enables key changes on the fly the original key really doesn't matter anymore. Interesting.

[lawson-stone]

It's probably a subject for another discussion, but my focus on sight-reading for 2 years a few years ago has completely changed my approach to practicing, not to mention eliminated most stress when I play with others. I can now much more easily tap the huge jazz guitar (and jazz more generally) literature out there, and get usable stuff right away. Did you check out the Peter Bernstein comping transcription that PMB did? that one chorus contains more useful stuff than 10,000 posts in this forum.

I know that most guitar players are allergic to sight reading. But Graham, you are a great player; I'm sure if you focused on reading for a few months you'd be really appreciative of the rewards.

In a letter he wrote to me, Joe Pass said "... if your ear is good, GREAT! If not, then do another hobby, or read music, or only play diminished scales--can't go wrong!"

[John A.]

This is really interesting to learn as jazz jam sessions are foreign to me. It does explain why a lot of jazz enthusiasts only want to work on the jazz repertoire if you're expected to just know this kind of stuff (i.e. the original key)! And I guess the Real Book isn't that real, huh? But it appears the primary reason to use the "real" key is because that's how everyone already knows it. So if iRealPro enables key changes on the fly the original key really doesn't matter anymore. Interesting.

One of the the big differences between jazz and, say, rock-based pop music is that in jazz there is a common repertoire spanning several generations and cutting across sub-genre and language/culture boundaries. You can walk into a session anywhere on the planet where people play jazz and have something to play, and not have to spend time figuring out the key (ideally) or learn an arrangement. I (55 years old) can walk into a room full of 20 year olds in Tokyo, or Paris or New York, or Belgrade, call "Just Friends," and we're jammin'. Not so with rock/pop, or at least not to nearly the same degree (try walking into a room full of 20 year olds, calling "Dixie Chicken" and see what happens). As long as that culture of jazz persists, I think there will be common keys and repertoire (even if those common keys are not completely universal). I don't think iReapPro will completely erode that, but you never know. The Real Book is a whole other saga that some people get very wrapped up in.

John

[PaulW10]

One of the the big differences between jazz and, say, rock-based pop music is that in jazz there is a common repertoire spanning several generations and cutting across sub-genre and language/culture boundaries. You can walk into a session anywhere on the planet where people play jazz and have something to play, and not have to spend time figuring out the key (ideally) or learn an arrangement. I (55 years old) can walk into a room full of 20 year olds in Tokyo, or Paris or New York, or Belgrade, call "Just Friends," and we're jammin'. Not so with rock/pop, or at least not to nearly the same degree (try walking into a room full of 20 year olds, calling "Dixie Chicken" and see what happens). As long as that culture of jazz persists, I think there will be common keys and repertoire (even if those common keys are not completely universal). I don't think iReapPro will completely erode that, but you never know. The Real Book is a whole other saga that some people get very wrapped up in.

John

Very interesting John. I never stopped to consider jazz in this context. A universal language. Makes a lot of sense.

[lawson-stone]

Guys
This is mainly to vent a little and possibly ask for advice, if there is any to give. I found an arrangement of DOWAR that was created mainly to give a "work out" on various chord grips, using 7b5 voicings where ever possible. I've never really done my 7b5 grips, so I thought this would be fun. It has been, except for one problem.

Below are 3 chord "grips" that you see everywhere. I'm focusing here more on the shapes than on the actual chords, so stay with me.


I love that Cmaj9 grip because if you pop the bass note to the 6th string, you get a X6 chord. If you hope the whole grip over one string (shape 2) you have a X9 chord, in this example, F9. Same shape, just hop it over. Cool. I have always been able to grab shapes 1 and 2 on the fly without fail, for over 20 years. Boom. Got it.

So then I start learning these 7b5 grips, and 3 above is super useful. 7b5 chords to me typically sound very muddy, but this grip sounds wonderful so I've been drilling on it. You will notice it's identical to the shape of 1 and 2 except the 2 inner strings are switched.

So now, I can grab this 7b5 shape pretty well, but I HAVE TOTALLY LOST GRIPS 1 & 2!! Seriously. I can't grab those shapes for love or money. Even if I stop and look... they don't come. It's like learning that 7b5 grip has erased or replaced my muscle memory for the other shapes!

Has this happened to you? What did you do to fix it? Just drill on them all? Or is there some "Jazz Guitar Jedi Mind Trick" I could use?

I will post the 7b5 heavy arrangement here as soon as I can play it decently... which may be a while.

[sunnysideup]

Guys
This is mainly to vent a little and possibly ask for advice, if there is any to give. I found an arrangement of DOWAR that was created mainly to give a "work out" on various chord grips, using 7b5 voicings where ever possible. I've never really done my 7b5 grips, so I thought this would be fun. It has been, except for one problem.

Not sure about advice, but a couple of observations.

Grip 3 is particulary useful in bar 3. There is potentially a lot of dissonance in bars 3 and 4. The Dexter Gordon version exploits dissonance progressively throughout the tune. There's an excellent closeup of his entire solo played on guitar by a Japanese guitarist (googling Dexter Gordon DOWAR transcription should bring it up). Wes also has a dissonant lick at this point in his solo, but he plays it so Wes-ly that it sounds more sweet than dissonant. Johnny Smith does something really crazy at this point in his solo - it sounds to me more like a static electricity explosion than music - really great!

Grip 2 for F tonic (F base note the A string) is a good way to close DOWAR, and many other songs; 1 or 2 posters have already done this for DOWAR. Or in a latin feel it's very common.

[matt.guitarteacher]

So now, I can grab this 7b5 shape pretty well, but I HAVE TOTALLY LOST GRIPS 1 & 2!! Seriously. I can't grab those shapes for love or money. Even if I stop and look... they don't come. It's like learning that 7b5 grip has erased or replaced my muscle memory for the other shapes!

Has this happened to you? What did you do to fix it? Just drill on them all? Or is there some "Jazz Guitar Jedi Mind Trick" I could use?

Practice the G9 version of grip 2, up 2 frets. Connect it melodically with the other grip. They go together anyway. Get back in touch with the third of grip 2 being on string 3 (and similar for Cmaj9).

I like to connect less familiar voicings with more familiar ones anyway, but this should help firm up the old as well.

[TLerch]

Hey Guys,
Since some are talking about the next tune I thought I'd do one more of Wine and Roses. Here is a rather spontaneous counterpoint-ish version with lots of give and take with the time. There are a few places where I stopped and pondered a phrase so the form is loose as well. I hope you enjoy it and maybe find the approach pleasing or at least interesting.
all the best