Epiphone "Blak & Blu" Casino - Worst Neck Joint in the History of Neck Joints?

[Marty Grass]

I've never seen anything like that neck joint, and I use the term joint "loosely".

[Mick-7]

Those are drains - I had to remove its gall bladder

Oh no! That's a sure sign you're feeding your guitar too many fat chords!

I actually bought it during the pandemic.

Maybe that's the answer, it's the (un)handiwork of some poor Chinese factory worker stressed out by the CCP's draconian Covid-19 lockdown program in effect at the time.

[Rocket Roll]

Maybe that's the answer, it's the (un)handiwork of some poor Chinese factory worker stressed out by the CCP's draconian Covid-19 lockdown program in effect at that time.

The model went out of production in 2019. I would like to sympathize with stressed factory workers, but this is, I fear, something older than Covid.

[Lockjaw Davis]

Just pour glue in there.

[Sam Sherry]

The model went out of production in 2019.

Wait a minute.
That guitar is at least six years old.
That neck joint is butt-ugly (pun intended) but it has held up for 6+ years.

Play it and don't drop it.

[supersoul]

Wait a minute.
That guitar is at least six years old.
That neck joint is butt-ugly (pun intended) but it has held up for 6+ years.

Play it and don't drop it.

If I was looking to buy that guitar, I would rather it not have epoxy poured into the neck socket. I don't think this is a ticking timebomb, it's how the guitar was made. Epiphone does know how to make guitars, and Casinos don't have a reputation for neck joint failures.
Just now I peered into my own 2021 made-in-China Epiphone Casino Worn. I think the neck socket looks similar to yours, maybe a little cleaner but still there are visible gaps. But you don't know what's going on inside the join, and it's obviously designed that way.
I love this guitar. It was cheap but it sounds good and is fun to play. Epoxy would just add weight and possibly change the sound, and it wouldn't be easily reversible.
Just play it!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Oh no! That's a sure sign you're feeding your guitar too many fat chords!

But the tone is so rich that I can’t stop!

[Rocket Roll]

But you don't know what's going on inside the join, and it's obviously designed that way.
Just play it!

OK, let me play the devil's advocate for a minute. Since we know that Casinos weren't designed to have such a shoddy neck joint in the first place, how do we know that this is not capitalism at work? How do we know that this is not exactly what's wrong with guitar industry, ie. "let's design the cheaper guitar to sound cheaper and fail earlier"?

Because that's exactly what this looks like.

Following that line of thought, if I make the neck joint more stable, maybe the guitar starts "working" better as a whole.

[supersoul]

OK, let me play the devil's advocate for a minute. Since we know that Casinos weren't designed to have such a shoddy neck joint in the first place, how do we know that this is not capitalism at work? How do we know that this is not exactly what's wrong with guitar industry, ie. "let's design the cheaper guitar to sound cheaper and fail earlier"?

Because that's exactly what this looks like.

Following that line of thought, if I make the neck joint more stable, maybe the guitar starts "working" better as a whole.

Have you seen this video tour on the Epiphone factory in China? It's a pretty cool thing to watch, and at 5:20 they visit the presses used to make the Casinos, you see the sides being pressed into shape, someone gluing in the rim kerfing, and the whole body being glued together.

It looks like the bodies are completed before the neck is attached. So maybe that helps explain why it looks the way it does from the inside.

Video is from 2016 and the interviewer speaks Japanese, but the factory manager is American and speaks English with a twang. Make sure the English subtlties are turned on.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

My '90s 7 string Epi LP was made in China. I got it new for very little money because Sam Ash couldn't give them away at the time. The only people who wanted 7 string solid bodies back then were metal players, and LPs don't have points. I bought it knowing that I"d have to change the hardware and fix body issues. The tuners were not lined up, and (as I learned later when I started to fix it up) two of the screws that held the control cavity cover plate in place had been inserted crooked and had broken off the edges of the cavity rout. The stop tailpiece posts were loose. The neck joint as seen through the pickup rout was not quite as sloppy as the OP's, but it's not exactly a thing of beauty. I'm not going to take it apart to take a picture of the inside of the neck joint, so you'll have to trust me that it's a visual horror show.

But I thought it'd be a decent beater with a little work and some better parts - and I was right. I'm still beating it 30 years later. But it now has Grover tuners, a Tusq nut, a bit of wood fill here and there, an EMG "active mount" in the neck rout with good pots and wiring, and a filled, finished bridge rout. The neck has remained as solid as a neck-through. FWIW, Ugly Betty weighs about 10 1/2 pounds in her current configuration with battery. With the Roland synth pickup in place, it's close to 11.

You get what you pay for.

[Little Jay]

Found this image on the Offset Guitar Forum (here: https://www.offsetguitars.com/forums...15827&start=15) of a 2008 Chinese made Casino:



The neck-body connection is definitely rough, but not as rough as yours. Like I said before: insert some shims/fineer with white woodglue in the crevices to stabilize the connection and it will probably be fine and stay fine (I also inserted pieces between the neckblock and the top and back to prevent it from wiggling - not that it wiggled but now it definitely can’t).

[Doctor Jeff]

As a woodworker, I can’t justify that. But, if it works…

Not sure how or why they machined it that way. Of course they routed it with a template. Maybe the template got worn or chewed up near the mouth over time. Perhaps they chiseled a little to aggressively around the “mouth” of the joint to “fine tune” the fit. (Notice the cracking on the left side.) It’s possible that higher up it’s a much tighter fit.

It’s also possible that they filled any voids with epoxy or some other glue which will be very stable.

Of course it would be hard to reset the neck if it ever needs it, but let’s be honest ain’t nobody on this forum gonna reset the neck of a Chinese guitar in their lifetime.

As a minor digression I buy and sometimes restore vintage furniture. It’s impressive to see how well made the midcentury stuff is—especially American, but I have some Scandinavian and Balkan pieces that are well-made, as well. Joints and non-visible parts like the back and drawer bottoms are clean, cleats and slides do exactly what they’re supposed to do, etc. I always think about the guy who made that in the factory and the pride they must have felt in their work. Wonder if they expected some dude in 2025 was gonna ooh and ah over what they made.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Not sure how or why they machined it that way. Of course they routed it with a template. Maybe the template got worn or chewed up near the mouth over time. Perhaps they chiseled a little to aggressively around the “mouth” of the joint to “fine tune” the fit. (Notice the cracking on the left side.) It’s possible that higher up it’s a much tighter fit.

The ratty area is in the rout, not the neck itself. All that roughness and gouging on the bass side has to have been handmade - the question is why. Did an uncaring assembly worker get too aggressive when fitting the neck? Was the machine made pocket off in position or dimension(s), as DJ suggests? Was the wrong neck fitted? Was the neck accidentally overcut? We'll never know, and it probably doesn't make any difference. As DJ also suggests, it's probably a sound join where it matters.

[Rocket Roll]

Well, Gibson asked me to scan the receipt and send it to them, so I presume they also think this is not their prime example of a neck joint.

Btw, I was going through the paperwork for this guitar and look what my wife found:



Now, what do you think - does this guitar represent "excellence in musical instruments craftmanship"?

(I really hate those general marketing statements.)

[Rocket Roll]

Gibson's answer:

"The first impression we get when looking at the images of the guitar's neck is that the structure of the instrument is not affected at all because the neck part of the guitar has enough space to ensure its stability.

We agree with your observation about the visual and cosmetic aspect of the end of the pickup cavity. It is true that it has not been cut symmetrically, and we apologize for this particular situation, considering that the cut is done by hand.

We are convinced that our QC Team made the decision to send the guitar considering that the structure and playability of the guitar were guaranteed. Hope it helps."

[AllanAllen]

There you have it. The neck is stable and has been stable for years.

Play it or sell it.

[John A.]

Gibson's answer:

"The first impression we get when looking at the images of the guitar's neck is that the structure of the instrument is not affected at all because the neck part of the guitar has enough space to ensure its stability.

We agree with your observation about the visual and cosmetic aspect of the end of the pickup cavity. It is true that it has not been cut symmetrically, and we apologize for this particular situation, considering that the cut is done by hand.

We are convinced that our QC Team made the decision to send the guitar considering that the structure and playability of the guitar were guaranteed. Hope it helps."

I don't get this, especially "the neck part of the guitar has enough space to ensure stability". I would think that you want a tight-fitting mortise and tenon, where the neck would basically not be able to move in the joint and the glue would be joining all the faces of the tenon to the mortise. What we have here is glue on the bottom of the tenon, but not the sides. Maybe the glue between the top of the guitar and underside of the neck extension and at the neck block/heel joint is enough to hold it (since it hasn't broken so far)? But even if it is, I would think you don't want wiggle room between the sides of the mortise and the tenon, no?

[AllanAllen]

I think the joints are under a lot less stress and the glue is stronger than most of us internet experts imagine.

[DawgBone]

Looks like complete crap. I have a chinese built, japanese assembled Edwards LP that you couldn't slip a split hair between the dovetail and the rout. Press fit. There is no excuse for that Casino except communism, which is a damn good excuse.

[John A.]

I think the joints are under a lot less stress and the glue is stronger than most of us internet experts imagine.

I can't speak for others, but I'm ust curious as to why this construction is OK (if it indeed is) when other similar guitars don't have big gaps like the ones in the pictures. FWIW, I just looked inside my D'Angelico semi-hollow and there's no gap at all between the neck tenon and the rout in the neck block. This is a 2005 made in Korea by SPG/Samick fwiw; no idea what current ones look like inside.

[AllanAllen]

I mean, it's okay because it's stable. If the guitar has lasted 5 years, it's probably going to last 50, unless it gets dropped. A Fender neck is held on with 4 screws...

You might not like the reasoning, but it is what it is.

[John A.]

I mean, it's okay because it's stable. If the guitar has lasted 5 years, it's probably going to last 50, unless it gets dropped. A Fender neck is held on with 4 screws...

You might not like the reasoning, but it is what it is.

IOW, you don't know why it's OK.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I can't speak for others, but I'm ust curious as to why this construction is OK (if it indeed is) when other similar guitars don't have big gaps like the ones in the pictures.

My bet is that the neck end of the heel and joint is fitted well, and that the butchered area is limited to the body cavity at the inside end of the neck. I’d love to see that area in a raw body waiting for a neck. It’s hard to understand why they’d leave wood to be chopped out manually when the neck is added, assuming they rout or mill the area when the body is made.

Some of those better fitted / finished neck joints in various posts appear to have been covered / filled with epoxy or a similar substance. I wonder if that was done to cover similar roughness.

[Rocket Roll]

What we're talking about here, I think, are two separate things:

1) Whether the guitar is stable as is ("if it works-it works, don't touch it")
2) Whether the guitar represents quality craftsmanship / whether the guitar was intended to look the way it looks.

If the answer to 1) is "yes", the answer to 2) can still be "no".

I'll accept "no, but..." from the user standpoint, because it works and that's what's important, but in my book, this is a job that I didn't expect from a factory of a brand which I considered to be serious.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I'll accept "no, but..." from the user standpoint, because it works and that's what's important, but in my book, this is a job that I didn't expect from a factory of a brand which I considered to be serious.

You’re completely right - we should reasonably expect and get a much higher level of quality from a top brand. But reality is that Gibson products have had some serious QC issues for over 50 years. The L-5CN I bought new in 1970 had a very visible splice in the binding, and there was a large (about 4 square inches) patch of raw, unfinished wood on the top starting under the end of the fingerboard (along with other issues that were bad enough in aggregate to prompt my dealer to take it back for a full refund).

Weak quality control, along with the quick fixes and use of random substitute parts on production models, is a major reason for Gibson’s decline and their repetitive financial crises. Epiphone production designs, specs, and methods are Gibson corporate directives. I hope they aren’t doing this to Mesa too.