What not to do on a gig

[DawgBone]

That's the cultural appropriation part.

I mean, any white dude playing jazz has to at least acknowledge that.

Still doesn't make blackface ok.

So should black jazz musicians acknowledge they have appropriated most of the instruments used in the genre from white people? Should non French people even be allowed to wear a suit and tie? Should an American wear a kimono or dutch clogs? Who does the loincloth belong to, culturally speaking? Should firearms only be possessed by europeans and if so do we only allow the Chinese to have the gunpowder? Never mind the fireworks. I guess Greek salad is now off the menu for most of us.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'd guess that the artists Elvis (and others) covered would have been mostly okay with it -- if they got the composer royalties.

[mr. beaumont]

So should black jazz musicians acknowledge they have appropriated most of the instruments used in the genre from white people? Should non French people even be allowed to wear a suit and tie? Should an American wear a kimono or dutch clogs? Who does the loincloth belong to, culturally speaking? Should firearms only be possessed by europeans and if so do we only allow the Chinese to have the gunpowder? Never mind the fireworks. I guess Greek salad is now off the menu for most of us.

I said acknowledge, not "don't do."

[pamosmusic]

So should black jazz musicians acknowledge they have appropriated most of the instruments used in the genre from white people? Should non French people even be allowed to wear a suit and tie? Should an American wear a kimono or dutch clogs? Who does the loincloth belong to, culturally speaking? Should firearms only be possessed by europeans and if so do we only allow the Chinese to have the gunpowder? Never mind the fireworks. I guess Greek salad is now off the menu for most of us.

This is also not useful.

Everyone appropriates other cultures. Most of the time it makes us better, more interesting people.

Sometimes it veers into cosplay and it’s worth having a language to describe that. It is over-applied, but mostly by people making the sort of caricatured counter arguments like you are.

And Mr B was drawing a distinction between cultural appropriation and literal blackface minstrelsy. The former is complicated. The latter is not.

[Bobby Timmons]

Jazz partially came from ragtime, which came from classical, which is white.

The who racially appropriated who isn't really necessary. :P

[pamosmusic]

Jazz partially came from ragtime, which came from classical, which is white.

The who racially appropriated who isn't really necessary. :P

This is silly. And again. Not what anyone at all is talking about.

(also I know some black classical musicians who would like a word with you)

[Bobby Timmons]

Says the argument is silly. Continues the argument in the same vain.

[pamosmusic]

Says the argument is silly. Continues the argument in the same vain.

Didnt say the argument was silly, my friend. Just said your post was silly because it has nothing to do with the argument.

[Bobby Timmons]

I'm pretty sure it involved putting one side on the right and one on the wrong, cultural appropriation being a loaded term.

[pamosmusic]

I'm pretty sure it involved putting one side on the right and one on the wrong

Correct.

And the side that I think is "on the wrong" is using images of blackface for anything but a history lesson on minstrelsy.

The side I think is "on the right" is not.

Pardon, but I'm not sure where your post fits in on that score.

[DawgBone]

I said acknowledge, not "don't do."

Fair enough, but cultural appropriation is spun in a negative light 100 percent of the time nowadays, it's applied negatively as an attack against someone's character, so not sure how you are squaring that with your love for playing jazz.

Regardless, civilization has been bettered by people sharing, trading, or borrowing ideas and inventions. Heck the best American music has mostly been made by bands who appropriated members from more than one cultural background, IMO of course. Sometimes I play my favorite doo-wop hits when I am not gigging on weekends and make my family guess if it's a black group or a white group or an integrated group, etc. It's funny how not having a visual reference can really skew your perceptions. There are several great integrated doo-wop groups that existed before integration was much of a thing. There are a few groups that are white but whose music might lead you to think they are black and a few that are black but whose sound might lead you to believe they are white. And there are some with members who are neither white nor black. It's beautiful.

[pamosmusic]

Fair enough, but cultural appropriation is spun in a negative light 100 percent of the time nowadays, it's applied negatively as an attack against someone's character, so not sure how you are squaring that with your love for playing jazz.

Regardless, civilization has been bettered by people sharing, trading, or borrowing ideas and inventions. Heck the best American music has mostly been made by bands who appropriated members from more than one cultural background, IMO of course. Sometimes I play my favorite doo-wop hits when I am not gigging on weekends and make my family guess if it's a black group or a white group or an integrated group, etc. It's funny how not having a visual reference can really skew your perceptions. There are several great integrated doo-wop groups that existed before integration was much of a thing. There are a few groups that are white but whose music might lead you to think they are black and a few that are black but whose sound might lead you to believe they are white. And there are some with members who are neither white nor black. It's beautiful.

Toni Morrison wrote a wonderful (long) short story where she very deliberately mixed the racial coding on the two main characters, and then removed all mention of their skin color. It's a lovely story, but also a really interesting experiment in the way that people read about and understand race––and how ridiculous and superficial it can be. That evolved into her very very famous and controversial first line in Paradise, which resulted in critics having public arguments about which character was the white character in a group of women she didn't describe in explicitly racial terms.

[Bobby Timmons]

Correct. And the side that I think is "on the wrong" is using images of blackface for anything but a history lesson on minstrelsy.

[mr. beaumont]

Fair enough, but cultural appropriation is spun in a negative light 100 percent of the time nowadays, it's applied negatively as an attack against someone's character, so not sure how you are squaring that with your love for playing jazz.

Regardless, civilization has been bettered by people sharing, trading, or borrowing ideas and inventions. Heck the best American music has mostly been made by bands who appropriated members from more than one cultural background, IMO of course. Sometimes I play my favorite doo-wop hits when I am not gigging on weekends and make my family guess if it's a black group or a white group or an integrated group, etc. It's funny how not having a visual reference can really skew your perceptions. There are several great integrated doo-wop groups that existed before integration was much of a thing. There are a few groups that are white but whose music might lead you to think they are black and a few that are black but whose sound might lead you to believe they are white. And there are some with members who are neither white nor black. It's beautiful.

You're right, it is spun negatively, probably because it was taken to such an extreme in the past, to the point of where white artists basically stole black music and profited VERY heavily from it.

I simply mean, when I'm playing jazz, I think it's important to know I'm playing a music invented by people who lived a very different life than I did. Understanding history through a lens of empathy makes me a better player.

[RJVB]

Oh, where did the minstrels of old go who sang of love and courageous deeds...

"mixed in with vicious parodies and lopsided appropriation, minstrelsy involved a real love of african american culture" https://global.oup.com/academic/prod...cc=de&lang=en&

We have a saying in the Netherlands that "whom you tease, you love" and as with so many of our expressions I think there's a lot of truth to that. It takes effort to come up with appreciable parodies, and you don't do that if there's not some form of love or appreciation. With exceptions of course (think Mel Brooks's "Hitler on Ice"...)
Anyway, I grew up with a yearly kids' event involving Zwarte Pieten. While they were originally the Moorish aides to Sinterklaas (the real one who lives in a palace in Spain ) their black faces have long been explained as the result of going down chimneys to leave gifts. As a kid (nor as an adult) I never wondered about what colour their skin would be under to soot, and they're invariably described as smart and kind though severe if necessary. That outer layer of colour is now a matter of sometimes violent debate, which I can't help be seeing as more than a bit over the top.

(BTW, am I the only one thinking "but what about Kabuki theatre"? Or about remastering all the old films where a person of colour is played by a clearly grimed white actor, just like many books are currently being rewritten for wokeness?)

[pauln]

So far this is all about past and present cultural aspects being off limits to appropriation. What about the future, using AI farms to project cultures' future aspects, appropriating preemptively so as to take precedence (reflectively making AI's projections incorrect)?

[DawgBone]

You're right, it is spun negatively, probably because it was taken to such an extreme in the past, to the point of where white artists basically stole black music and profited VERY heavily from it.

I simply mean, when I'm playing jazz, I think it's important to know I'm playing a music invented by people who lived a very different life than I did. Understanding history through a lens of empathy makes me a better player.

Then there are the record labels who stole from everyone haha.

My old man is white on paper but mixed in dna yet darker than about half his "black" cousins so I don't know if I appropriated anything or not with the blues. It never crossed my mind cause the concept is stupid IMO. I just felt drawn to the music. Did ancestry play a role? Who cares and so what if it did? So what if it didn't? I'm me.

My grandfather played bone and harmonica, jazz and blues, in Nawlins, then moved to Missouri with his black wife, then fled to California and married a white woman when his black wife would not leave St. Louis. The white woman is my grandmother so maybe granddad appropriated himself some white society I guess. He was light skinned so it worked. But who really cares? What was, was. What is, is. What will be, will be. Play what you love and try to love God and others. It's simple in concept, just not that easy to execute.

[DawgBone]

Toni Morrison wrote a wonderful (long) short story where she very deliberately mixed the racial coding on the two main characters, and then removed all mention of their skin color. It's a lovely story, but also a really interesting experiment in the way that people read about and understand race––and how ridiculous and superficial it can be. That evolved into her very very famous and controversial first line in Paradise, which resulted in critics having public arguments about which character was the white character in a group of women she didn't describe in explicitly racial terms.

If you can recall it, what's the name of the short story? I might get some enjoyment out of reading that. Sounds interesting.

[pamosmusic]

If you can recall it, what's the name of the short story? I might get some enjoyment out of reading that. Sounds interesting.

https://www.cusd80.com/cms/lib/AZ010...fessay.doc.pdf

[AllanAllen]

You guys aren't using the term right. Cultural Appropriation is strictly a negative thing. It's not the same as cultural borrowing(Elvis) or cultural cross pollination(Jazz musicians using European instruments).

Cultural appropriation takes place when members of a majority group adopt cultural elements of a minority group in an exploitative, disrespectful, or stereotypical way.

Source

Anyway, this thread is a shit show.

[mr. beaumont]

You're right Allan, it becomes appropriation when it's unacknowledged or "goes too far."

[Bobby Timmons]

It ain't easy being a minority yo.

You know what, the majority is culturally appropriating my minority culture. :P

[JohnoL]

At a restaurant gig don't eat leftover food from people's plates.

[Christian Miller]

At a restaurant gig don't eat leftover food from people's plates.

The fact that I don’t question that this actually happened on a gig says a lot. Musicians are not normal.


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[RJVB]

The fact that I don’t question that this actually happened on a gig says a lot. Musicians are not normal.

Finishing non-empty wine bottles is fine though ... the rest you can take home in a doggy bag?