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Retina scanning and fingerprinting are way different things, despite the one common attribute: both can serve identification in secure environments. I mean you can secure a door, a device, etc with retina, or fingerprint identification (just as like knowing a secure password, or code, or having a smart card) This has nothing to do with committed crimes, this is identification, to allow access to something which have restricted access.
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
However you do not leave your retina on the glasses you drink, the bars you visit, and all object you touches and the crime scenes. Retina is barely used in crime investigation. So fingerprint is more like DNA in regard of tracing crimes.
DNA taking place of fingerprint, as the criminals simply can wear gloves, but preventing to leave their DNA traces is much more difficult, and requires conspicious look.
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05-02-2022 07:29 AM
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Jonathon -
I don't know whether it's too late now or what but you're over-reacting. Anybody who works in sensitive areas (schools, hospitals, etc) has to undergo a security check. Over here you have to get a new certificate from the DBS (Disclosure and Barring Service) every time you start in a new place. Fingerprints are just the US's way of doing it. All the staff will have already been printed and anybody new coming in will be too.
Give them the prints, do the gig, get paid. That's all, simple. Unless you've been a naughty boy, of course
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I asked my wife (who has worked in schools for years) about the OP’s predicament and she thought that here in the UK, as a non-employee of the school, he would not necessarily be required to pass any checks, provided that an appropriate adult from the school (e.g. the music director, or a teacher) will be present all the time, and he is not going to be working one-to-one with individual children.
Parents sometimes go on school trips to help the teachers, and they are not normally required to pass DBS checks.
Actually we just thought of a very similar example to the OP’s - the school my kids went to often used to augment the school orchestra (for big productions) with musicians from the local semi-professional community orchestra and choir. None of them were required to pass DBS checks (my wife worked there at the time).Last edited by grahambop; 05-02-2022 at 09:28 AM.
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Did you ever hear the old expression: "Give them an inch . . . they'll take a mile." Liberties are easily forfeited and difficult to regain. The real issue here is that our society in the US has seriously declined since the 50's/60's to the point that these measures are, many times, necessary to ensure the safety of the children/public. And, our culture has not only changed for the worse but the dominance of mass media exposes every nook and cranny of deviance across America, however rare, and features it on the evening news . . . throwing millions of parents into an unreasonable panic. Sadly, we have easily accepted these losses of Liberty for the perceived notion of safety. It has become the status quo. The Herd, throughout the History of the World, has never been right about anything yet their fears become our reality. So, to answer the OP's question, again, I do not need the money or the experience of playing another gig . . . give the gig to someone else.
Marinero
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Problem is, the deviance ain't so rare.
Investigation Uncovered Widespread Sexual Misconduct at Logan Square High School | Chicago News | WTTW
People worried about losing their rights and liberties...how about those of the students?
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Hi, J, Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
That's the "Catch-22" with our new reality. The desire for unfettered Liberty and the need for security are incompatible bedfellows. What's next?
Marinero
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I was a 4H leader for many years. I would teach many things, judge projects, lead bike rides, talent shows etc. always with another adult present.
Then one day I was given a form to fill out for a background check, I said find another leader I quit.
I had nothing to fear from a background check but after 20 years a leader I found it insulting.
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I presume you mean sensitive areas (schools, hospitals, etc), and I suppose that certificate is just a summary of any naughty things you've done as an adult and for which you got caught or declared guilty? Or maybe just an overview of what kind/level of misdemeanors etc. you may have been guilty of (= without going into the details)? It's already been pointed out that this is both more appropriate (cf. the underlined bit) and less potentially invasive for your future. Originally Posted by ragman1
I don't think any school gig is worth the risk of future legal trouble because your prints happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Idem here, AFAIK. Of course they're parents, and school trips are not on the school premises. I do know I'm not supposed to introduce myself without invitation on the school campus where my SO works, but the same was true for the research institutions where I worked last. Originally Posted by grahambop
However, I cannot remember having had to provide a patte blanche when I enrolled for lessons at my local music school, or consent to having my file queried. Mostly kids there, too, and until the corona circus came to town just about everyone could enter there freely.
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Problem is, our definition of deviance (or non-desirable behaviours in general) seems to be getting ever more strict too - and I don't think that is just me? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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And this is how our freedoms slowly erode away. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Is this what you’re referring to? Originally Posted by Marinero
“Disinformation Governance Board to be run by the Department of Homeland Security, with the goal of combating online disinformation.”
AKA
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Not when it comes to kids, and that's what we are talking about here. Originally Posted by RJVB
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What do you think's going to happen if they do a check? SWAT team through the window? Baddies don't apply for things like this because they'd fail. So funnies are stopped before they begin. We should be thankful.
Too much ego, paranoia, and all that. Get the check done, do the job, go home. Simple.
Fuss about nothing. You're only doing yourself out of work. And some fun, probably.
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Well, when it comes to kids too. Then again, I (mostly) hate (most) kids, so there's that Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Question for the people who think there's nothing to fuss about here ... did you answer in the positive in one of the threads about using weed or being a stoner? A thorough background check that's not based purely on your actual "wrap sheet" will (should...) reveal that.
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First off, IMO, child molesters are the worst of the worst and anything we can do short of Chinese/Iranian style authoritarianism to protect children for the "short eyes" folks seems like a good idea.
But in my experience, children are used as a justification for all kinds of liberty diminutions. I have heard "but we must protect the children" used as a mantra to justify censorship many times. When it comes to diminishing the freedom of adults just in case the children are exposed to something, count me out. Using children as an excuse for censorship is weak. But when it comes to a background check prior to performing in a school, I am open to it. I am also open to banning teachers and textbooks that discuss sexuality/gender identity for K-3 students. Let's let children be children.
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Afterward: The Outcome
In the end it wasn't about civil liberties or the presumption of guilt or the Constitution or child safety or any of that crap.
I called the school board today to inquire about being fingerprinted. They'll be happy to do it for a $48 charge. With a $200 stipend I'd be working seven days, reviewing a lot of music and doing a lot of running around for the princely sum of $152 minus a couple tankfuls of gas (It would be about an hour of driving each day.)
I decided, screw it. I sent a polite email to the MD asking how he'd like me to return the book.
THE END
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Yeah that’s a bit much, over here the school generally pays for the checks to be done.
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Ah, I forgot that. Some companies pay for the check, others you have to pay yourself. Usually that applies to non-permanents. Which makes sense because the casual ones are the most risky. The exception can be agency workers because they're vouched for by the agency, so the agency pays. Full-time permanent employees, hired after interview, etc, don't usually pay.
Anyway, the OP's done it his way. I hope he's not going to find the same situation occurring with other jobs that come up otherwise...
I'm sure you'll find this fascinating, especially you US folks!
Who Pays For DBS Checks? - DBS Checks
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That definitely goes into the "thanks but no thanks" file. Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
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Of course, the running joke with those 'no issues found' certificates was that they're only good to the day they're issued. The day after is when you nip out and rob your bank... wearing gloves, naturally
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I retired three years ago after 44 years in Catholic high schools, the last 32 as a principal. I can tell you that, in any place I worked (5 different states), anyone with access to a school -- public or private -- had to be fingerprinted and screened. As some have noted above, that's just the way it is now. While some people didn't like it (and I understand that), most everyone understood and complied. Protection of the students is of paramount importance. Even college professors who came on campus to teach our students courses offered by the local university had to go through the process.
You need to decide based on your love of music and the reality of what schools are like in 2022. There is no right decision -- it's a matter of conscience.
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Ask them for their fingerprints.
Last edited by Stevebol; 05-02-2022 at 11:03 PM.
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You have to pay for it?! Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
Hell no.
That's a deal breaker.
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Indeed, it is in our everyday life. This is why it would great to educate people (ourself) to see the signs both on the potential deviants and both on the (future) victims. The other important thing is also educate people (ourself) to speak up if anything, even minor thing happen, both the victim both the listener should know, this is the only way to go. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
However with shallow emotional culture and ignorance this could be a two way weapon too. There is a great movie about it with Mads Mikkelsen, The Hunt (2012): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2106476/
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The dilemme is personal and also social, political. Sometimes I tend to agree that it worth to pay the price of the lowered personal rights and liberty in exchange of a safer society. Sometimes I feel it is contraproductive, and would be better way to lower the ignorance.
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That's slightly different. It's not about security, which is probably necessary, but about money. Incidentally, the security stuff has nothing to do with presumption of guilt, that's silly. They have to know who they're letting in the door. Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
Years ago I had a full time job then they cut the hours, which left me free in the afternoons. So I signed up with an agency and they sent me to lots of places. I had to pay for my own transport and, initially, for my own security clearance checks. But overall, of course, I gained. I could live just fine. Not rich but perfectly happy. It's the way it's done.
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Charlie Parker Transcriptions
Yesterday, 11:12 PM in The Songs