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That stupid song smh....at least the brown eyed girl and mustang sally requests have died down the past few years....only to be replaced by something worse. Oh well do you know "wagon wheel"? sigh....
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
If you haven't played enough bad gigs to gag a maggot, you haven't played enough gigs. Certain gigs must be avoided because they are bad, other gigs just happen to be bad. It's how you build the stagecraft...."can you play Tennessee Whiskey?" The correct answer is "we only drink Kentucky Bourbon in this band" thereby sidestepping the fact that they were requesting a song and implying they were asking the band if we wanted shots of liquor. Sometimes the projection of extreme ignorance and stupidity is a more effective way of dealing with the ignorant, stupid sort of person who requests TN whiskey from a blues or jazz group....
I should be charging for this advice but even if I was I'd still be broke LOL.
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06-03-2026 07:08 PM
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Congrats, Kris, you just lived this old joke Originally Posted by kris
Q: How do you know a chick singer is at the door?
A: She can't find the key and doesn't know when to come in.
Yep, apologies for this totally misogynistic interlude. But... calm down, its a JOKE, folks. You know what they say about people who can't take a joke...
I should also mentioned that I have worked with a number of GREAT female vocalists, who had all the chops and savvy of any instrumentalist on the stand. This joke is not about them, nor is it about the plethora of awesome chick singers that hang out on JGO.Last edited by starjasmine; 06-04-2026 at 12:10 AM.
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LOooove when Morgan James sits in with them. She also did an episode of Emmet Cohen's jam. IDK why she isn't more well known. Originally Posted by brent.h
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Maybe you could just talk to the owner of the venue to clarify expectations. Is it a jazz jam or an open mic? Is it more important to sell drinks to anybody and their friend who wants to sing, or is there a certain standard of musicianship or style of music that is expected? I knew of a bar in SF North Beach that had jazz on Weds nights just to keep the bartenders happy on a typically slow night. They didn't care whether the crowd was into it. The trio was literally there cuz the bar staff liked jazz.
One way to thread the needle at your jam is to invite noobs up only for short periods of time, interspersing them with the better players, who get more time. That's kind of the unwritten rule of any jazz jam: If you are killin' it, you may find yourself on the stand for an extended set. If you flail, you get maybe only one tune before it is someone else's turn.
A corollary, which is also kind of an unwritten operating plan for many jams, is to make the noobs wait late into the evening for their chance*, after all the tried-n-true players have turned in a few hours of good music. That keeps people in the house longer, sells more drinks, doesn't drive away audience who don't want to hear noobs, and then subjects only the diehard alcoholics to the flailings of the noobs.
Good luck ... keep us posted as to the evolution (devolution?) of this jam...
*See "paying dues" in The Official Jazz Musician's Handbook or in any movie about playing jazz.Last edited by starjasmine; 06-04-2026 at 12:09 AM.
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I think that playing with other people is a superb idea. If you want to be a small group player, how can you not do this?
I have found it helpful in invitation-only jam formats.
I haven't found open jams all that helpful. Jams at a friend's house are typically 2.5 hours of playing. Open jam is often two tunes with no time to warm up or adjust your sound. In my experience, dynamics are usually limited and there isn't much mutual listening or group creativity. Often, everything is loud. That can be true even when the players are fine individually.
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I was in an arranging class in music school. It's a school that was known for jazz but also increasingly, the presence of singers has changed the landscape, and the school does pander to the singers.
This was an arranging class. The class was teaching students to use notated harmony, rhythmic articulation and accent notation with instrumental parts as backup for a solo instrument. The assignment was to create an arrangement for drum, bass, rhythm instrument and soloist. Choice of feel. Include arranged breaks or sectional cues. This was the end of the semester.
The singer presents her arrangement. It's a song with words and notated melody. Above the line are chord symbols, very basic chord symbols.
The instructor tactfully points out "This isn't really what the assignment was."
She looks genuinely vexed. "But this is what I give my band."
Singers.
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The answer is that it's supposed to be a jazz jam and not an open mic. But, the difference between the two is lost on a great deal of the clientele, who appear to think that it's an open mic with a sophisticated band on hand to back them up, if they need it. They might not; I was told last time that it was in fact the pianist who would play the bassline for this original pop number, though I was welcome to hang around on stage and join in if I liked. Originally Posted by starjasmine
I have suggested interspersing the jazz-adjacent songs with standards etc., though it's likely that performers will get a couple of songs before they step down.
It's important to note here that a lot of the attendees calling songs which I don't much like or consider to be "proper" jazz are decent musicians and/or singers and the general public likes listening to them; this is really a matter of taste and culture rather than competence.
The house band certainly have good taste in jazz (though I would say that ;-) but we have to try to balance this with keeping the venue owners happy and satisfying the desire to be inclusive.
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Warning. This may be a thread hijack.
A typical situation with a singer, including jazz singers, is they come in with a poorly executed chart, of some kind.
Commonplace is handwritten chord symbols with no melody. Often, the turnarounds and endings are poorly written and therefore ambiguous.
Not unusual for the singer's regular players to play things that aren't in the chart, but were worked out long ago. And the new guy has to figure it all out on the fly.
Most of the singers I work with at least know their own roadmaps, but sitting-in amateurs may not. So, the singer does something and the band has to follow. One pianist I know won't follow an error. He's willing to be the only member of the band who's right. Unfortunately, the audience may not appreciate his principles.
OTOH, now that I've been singing, I've been seeing things a bit more from the singer's point of view. I'm in front, trying to put the song across and having clear ideas about how to do that. And very unclear ideas about how to communicate those ideas to the band on the fly (I'm working on that). I don't want to have to do everything exactly the same every time, no matter how unreasonable that may be. And, some players are really good at adapting on the bandstand and some, less so.
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This might help you communicate and learn some of the unspoken cues.OTOH, now that I've been singing, I've been seeing things a bit more from the singer's point of view. I'm in front, trying to put the song across and having clear ideas about how to do that. And very unclear ideas about how to communicate those ideas to the band on the fly (I'm working on that). I don't want to have to do everything exactly the same every time, no matter how unreasonable that may be. And, some players are really good at adapting on the bandstand and some, less so.
https://youtu.be/nYRvrONjlUQ?si=GDM0uzCetpSVpNpH
I'll reserve my true thoughts on your piano player with an ego so big he'll tank everything to be right. But life's too short to put up with someone like that. I'd rather watch Columbo at night.
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@OP gvurrdon
Bottom line: it's up to the bandleader and venue owner to decide which way this evening should go. If it is "proper jazz jam" then I am in DawgBone's camp: the leader of the jam needs to enforce standards for style of music and competence of those allowed on stage. With kindness and respect, of course:
- "You're not ready for this stage yet, but keep practicing and keep coming to the jam and we'll try to fit you in when it is appropriate."
- "This is a jazz jam; we don't do original charts written by audience members. If you want to sing a jazz standard from the GASB or Real Book, we'd love to have you come up and do that."
If the venue owner and bandleader don't want to define the night as "proper jazz jam" then you are stuck in the current situation, and you have to decide whether you get enough out of it (money, fun, connections) to stay, or decide to practice/watch TV at home.
You might start with just voicing some of your opinions to the bandleader in a phone call or over a drink on an off night. That is, the time to complain is not just before you go onstage for one of these jam nights ;-)
Good luck & let us know how things turn out....
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Thanks, @starjasmine.
We have discussed this and the answer is essentially "cake and eating it"; this is a "proper" jazz jam but we will allow pop, blues, soul etc. etc. as long as the opportunity for some instrumental improvisation remains (e.g. a couple of horn solos between verses) and the singers are willing to perform with the band.
How this goes in the long term remains to be seen.Last edited by gvurrdon; 06-05-2026 at 06:07 AM.
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A standard feature of the (now discontinued) Augusta Swing Week camps was a session on leading and participating in ad-hoc playing, including how to lead a backing group if you're the singer. Some of it seemed a bit obvious to me, since by that time I'd been playing with a quartet for a year or so. Nevertheless, it was useful to see the generally-understood signals and protocols laid out explicitly--set the key and the tempo, do the count-off, signal the various structural choices (intro, tag), call the solos, "I'll sing the bridge and then out," and so on. All of this was reinforced in the week-long student-band project, which started with choosing a tune, working out the arrangement, and performing at the last-day showcase. Quite a decent musicianship 101 experience.
As to how this applies to jams--everybody here understands the stuff described above, so I would think that gatherings that allow newbies or the partly-experienced to participate would want figure out how to work those basics into the program. There's a bit of time-and-effort overhead for the leaders and organizers, but unless the event really is intended for experienced players, it's a kindness to everyone involved.
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It seems to me that getting the better musicians to come out requires that the music be played at a high enough level to keep them interested.
The singers benefit from having the better players and need to understand the point about what keeps the better players coming back.
The club owner needs to understand that too. He might be best served by catering to the singers enough to fill seats while challenging the players enough to have good bands.
If everybody buys in to this concept, well, maybe it would help.
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@OP, it strikes me that your situation might present some opportunities:
- an opportunity to build the jazz community in your area
- an opportunity for the venue and the house band to make a bit of extra dough
The pitch: require noobs to attend a workshop in which they learn how to function effectively in a jazz ensemble jam session. For singers, this would be how to count off a tune, how to communicate with the band during the tune, creating a list of jazz standards in standard keys that they can call on the stand, learning what key to ask for when they need a non-standard key, understanding that the bandstand is a two-way (or more like a five-way) street (asking for a particular tune in a particular key does not mean you'll get it, so have plan B,C and D), how to communicate with soloists, and so on.
Depending on level of interest and the math of paying the band and the venue, the shop could be held an hour before the jam starts, or it could be held on a completely different date/time/location. You could charge for attendance. Maybe $5, maybe $25. The shop might be held in two parts: first hour lecture about all of the requisite bandstand skills, with the leader of the shop and the house band demonstrating practical application of these skills. The second part would give each shop participant a chance to try out the skills with the house band and get feedback on what works and what needs to improve. A week between the first and second parts could give the participants a chance to go home and prepare a tune for the second part. To keep things manageable for the house band, you could limit the selection of tunes to a handful of well-known and easy jazz chestnuts: a ballad, a bossa, and maybe a jazz-adjacent pop tune. These tunes could rotate from week to week to stave off boredom for the band and give participants the opportunity to take repeat workshops as needed.
Participants could bring their own audience members - if they are not ready to be on the pro stage, they can still bring their GF, BF, spouse, coworkers or other crew to hear them sing or play at part 2. (You could also do a similar shop for instrumentalists.)
Now the gentle turndown becomes "you aren't quite ready, but we can help you get there. You can come to our workshop that teaches you what's expected on the bandstand - it's only $5 and we have it every Tuesday at 5 pm. You can bring your friends to hear you sing there. When you're ready, you can get on stage at jam night." Or something like that...
I did something similar for one of my students a long time ago. He was a project manager in his 40s, had been playing for a few years, wanted some stage time but was not nearly ready to get into a band or participate in a jam. I was gigging in a rock band a couple of nights a week at a big club with a huge stage that had pro sound and lighting. I had him learn one of the tunes that the band did. We worked on it at his lesson for a couple of weeks. When he could get through the tune top to bottom and felt ready to perform, I invited him to play it at the club during sound check a couple hours before the house opened. Having never been on a pro stage before, he completely flailed (see the "you only remember thirty percent on stage" rule) but we gave him a couple runthroughs. He got a chance to see what it was like to play on a real stage, and he brought his wife so she got to see him play in that environment as well.
I've also been watching a Netflix show called "Funny AF", which is a standup comedy competition that rewards the winner with their own one-hour Netflix special. There have also been similar shows in music ("Making the Band", "America's Greatest Singer") that are a combination of competition and training the competitors to perform at a pro level. TBH I cannot watch the music shows (! the competitors and repertoire tend to be a bit awful) but the idea of building community and providing performance opportunities for new musicians appeals.
Anyway, just an idea... hope it helps.Last edited by starjasmine; 06-06-2026 at 03:06 PM.
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I hope that's the case across the board (for different localities). I got stuck with playing "Brown Eyed Girl" in a band 30 plus years ago because the band leader insisted we do so - ugh! For me, "Mustang Sally" is just as bad. Originally Posted by DawgBone
Jams are a mixed bag for me. Some are good, some are very much bad. I went to a blues jam at a neighborhood bar when I was attending the University of Wisconsin in the mid 80s that fell into the latter category. Yes it was a "blues jam", but what was not stated information-wise was that it was basically conducted by a group of musicians who knew each other from the local live scene, and therefore, only wanted to jam with each other. Guess who didn't know any of the local live musicians, and (despite bringing her guitar along with her) wasn't invited on-stage to play? - I felt embarrassed to say the least.
Other jams - well, they're nice if players and singers are invited on-stage by the house band to play a few numbers (assuming they know them, or can at least decently fake their way through them [if you can't do either of those two things, have the courtesy to bow out of playing]), but all too often, as has been mentioned it's the singers who usually want to "come play with the band." Forgive me if I'm too harsh, but it's been my personal experience that singers are typically the least capable musically - they usually can't transpose keys for songs played in different keys, or played at different tempos than the way they have sung the songs in the past (as I've mentioned in other threads, I get my band fix [due to no other avenues being available for me] by playing at mass at a local Catholic church on Saturdays, and the singers are always the weakest link - it's why I have to keep things simple playing-wise, to [as the music director says] "keep them from getting confused'). As a result, the vocal performance often comes off as sounding like what you typically hear at Karaoke Night. No thanks.
IMO it is difficult at best having public jazz, blues, open mic, etc. jams that are sustainable. The good musicians (including good singers) feel like they're being held back by the "wannabe" singers and players, who need to think clearly about going on-stage as to whether or not they can pull off a credible performance. By the same token, the aspiring performers may think the jam is too exclusionary about who can come up on-stage, and feel alienated, deciding not attend the weekly jam session anymore (which is of course not good for venue revenue).
P.S. - IMO there is a worse "jam-type" situation - the person who insists upon sitting in with your band during your gig. I had it happen in two separate bands. We got sick of the people badgering us during the gig to "let me do a song or two with you" (at least one of them had a case of "legend in my own mind" syndrome), so we let them up on-stage to shut them up. Both of the people were "singers", and their performances were cringe worthy to say the least. After the second occurrence it became "never again" for allowing this to happen in my bands.Last edited by EllenGtrGrl; 06-06-2026 at 03:43 PM.
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I had a gig at a bar that had a strict "No Mustang Sally bands" rule. If the band played MS, they were fired immediately and never invited back LOL
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Jam session is one big unknown.
I mean the current times in which we live.
A lot of musicians want to show themselves on stage and their skills are sometimes embarrassing.
Maybe it would be good to post a list with the names of the tunes that will be played during the jam session beforehand.
It can't be that the musicians play one or two chords throughout the jam.
What is this all about....?
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Have you guys listened to the guitar part on Brown Eyed Girl? The guy is a killer player doing double stop lead lines the whole time.
I suspect people who rag on Brown Eyed Girl didn’t ever try to learn it in the first place. Just saw 3 chords and milquetoasted it.
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The guitar part on Brown Eyed Girl was played by Jay Berliner.
If you like that style, another song you might enjoy is Taj Mahal's Six Days on the Road. Jesse Ed Davis on lead guitar.
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An earlier recording was by Dave Dudley, who was known as the King of Truck Driving music. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 06-08-2026 at 02:10 AM.
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Jams have always been a mixed bag. I have probably went to a thousand blues jams at this stage, to the point where I really don't care if I get called up at all because I'm also there to hear and analyze other players, network, see friends, and have a few beers and chill. I've experienced about every possible scenario from being readily welcomed, only being welcomed after waiting all night and the "pro jam" guys finally realize you can play, having the "you outplay me so now I'm jealous" mentality where they stick you with the bottom feeder players. Then there is the "you are good let me make you earn my money by keeping you on stage too long" jam, to having the "you can rip so let me be selfish and jam with you and snub a bunch of other guys who were here first" situations. Then there are the "hey do you want a gig" jams. Then there are "you were meeting a name player at the jam so let me throw the wrench in your gears by inserting a bad player because I'm jealous" jams lol. Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl
There are also one or two situations where I co-hosted a pro jam and had to shoot down my co host when someone really wanted a chance to play with better players. I believe strong desire trumps current ability level in some situations.
I believe in mostly following the sign up sheet order but I also am not the authority at someone else's jam so I found that approaching it with humility is the most beneficial way to go about it, that way I'm not disappointed in any outcomes. IME using that approach and coming with a "I want to learn" attitude that shows a high level of desire and effort over time def will help you get respect from other musicians. It's a difficult road so older players tend not to respect people who show up for a single night wanting to trump the regulars, especially in situations where the majority of the jammers are guys without gigs elsewhere.
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It can be helpful to recon new jams as an audience member before showing up with your axe. First, you're supporting the jam, paying it forward*. Second, you can get an idea of the repertoire and the level of playing. Third, if #2 is disappointing, you can just leave without anyone noticing ...
*And, for Heaven's sake, buy a drink and tip the waitstaff! If you don't drink, ask for a water and tip the waitstaff. It costs money to run a venue, pay the staff, pay the bills, etc. If you don't want plain water/ "still water", ask for soda with a twist of lemon and a dash of bitters.Last edited by starjasmine; 06-07-2026 at 04:40 PM.
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I used to be poor, still am, so I would buy a 24oz beer at the gas station and drink it before going into the venue, that way it kept my bill at the club down to a manageable level, LOL. Tipping is critical. Bars have high turnover rates, those people go work at other bars. Being kind/generous to staff and sound people has resulted in additional gigs because you have name recognition with people who end up at different venues. Originally Posted by starjasmine
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It was boring for me (too many double stops become repetitive IMO, and the chord progression is kind of meh for me), despite me playing lead guitar in the song (our other guitarist was a rhythm player). If we had to do Van Morrison, I would have preferred to play "Wild Night". It is uptempo, and has some pretty cool guitar breaks in it. But you know, "Brown Eyed Girl" is what most in the audience are familiar with when it comes to Van Morrison. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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That means you give them Moondance or Into the Mystic. Never give an audience what they want. Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl
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