Cuing after an open section

[rpjazzguitar]

This has come up a few times and I'm wondering how others handle it.

We're reading a chart. The chart has an "Open" section, meaning something is looped until a cue. It could be anything from one chord to a series of chords or even a melody line. Let's assume, for the sake of this discussion, that nobody has the thing memorized. That means that people may have their eyes on the chart, not the leader, at least, not all the time.

Let's also assume that upon transition, there's an immediate ensemble passage, so it's essential that everybody knows where the band is just before the transition.

Another potential issue is that the cue isn't always given by the leader. It may be given by the soloist.

To take a simple case, it's 4 bars of a single chord. Somebody is soloing. It could be the drummer, playing one of those solos which is only finished when nobody knows where One is anymore.

One band member strongly believes that the cue should be given at the beginning of the four bar phrase, with a hand signal. He believes that everybody should know where the band is in the four bar phrase, even when the rhythmic chop is a two bar phrase, even when it's all one chord, and even if the drummer has been doing one of those confusing solos.

In a way, it goes without saying. Of course, everybody should know where they are even in a repeated four bar phrase with only one chord with a two bar clave. But, the reality is that sometimes people lose count. I'd prefer to have the band play it correctly even if that requires pandering to the bad-counters.

Another member wants to hear the word GO! shouted early in the last rhythmic (2 bar) phrase. This member sees this as unambiguous and more foolproof. Or, maybe at the beginning of the last bar of the Open section, although that can be too abrupt.

Still another would prefer it if there was a symbol on the chart (like a face shouting) to indicate where the cue should be given. Then, when you hear GO!, there is no ambiguity about where you are with respect to the upcoming transition - even if you don't know where you are in the 4 bar phrase. But, afaik, there isn't one. Anybody know more?

Another issue is the cue itself. Hand signal or shout? The problem with a hand signal may be the that the stage plot can make it difficult for a player to see it, especially if there is something they need to read at the same time.

So, what is the usual way to do this?

And what is your personal preference?

A caveat: if the open section is an entire chorus of the tune, then it's easy. Soloist signals last time (somehow -- how do you want to see or hear that?) and everybody knows when the chorus ends. It's tougher with one chord or just a few.

[AllanAllen]

Big band, one of the sax players in front signals with their hand. The hand has grabbed my attention so far.

Small group, have a leader on stage who can tap their hear or call out “back to the form” and just follow them.

Basically, have one person in charge, the band can follow them. If everyone in the band is in charge they’ll all come
in how they think is correct, and it’ll be a mess. If someone in the band has such a big ego that they can’t do this, fire them. Life is too short to work with stubborn fools.

[pcjazz]

This has come up a few times and I'm wondering how others handle it.

We're reading a chart. The chart has an "Open" section, meaning something is looped until a cue. It could be anything from one chord to a series of chords or even a melody line. Let's assume, for the sake of this discussion, that nobody has the thing memorized. That means that people may have their eyes on the chart, not the leader, at least, not all the time.

Let's also assume that upon transition, there's an immediate ensemble passage, so it's essential that everybody knows where the band is just before the transition.

Another potential issue is that the cue isn't always given by the leader. It may be given by the soloist.

To take a simple case, it's 4 bars of a single chord. Somebody is soloing. It could be the drummer, playing one of those solos which is only finished when nobody knows where One is anymore.

One band member strongly believes that the cue should be given at the beginning of the four bar phrase, with a hand signal. He believes that everybody should know where the band is in the four bar phrase, even when the rhythmic chop is a two bar phrase, even when it's all one chord, and even if the drummer has been doing one of those confusing solos.

In a way, it goes without saying. Of course, everybody should know where they are even in a repeated four bar phrase with only one chord with a two bar clave. But, the reality is that sometimes people lose count. I'd prefer to have the band play it correctly even if that requires pandering to the bad-counters.

Another member wants to hear the word GO! shouted early in the last rhythmic (2 bar) phrase. This member sees this as unambiguous and more foolproof. Or, maybe at the beginning of the last bar of the Open section, although that can be too abrupt.

Still another would prefer it if there was a symbol on the chart (like a face shouting) to indicate where the cue should be given. Then, when you hear GO!, there is no ambiguity about where you are with respect to the upcoming transition - even if you don't know where you are in the 4 bar phrase. But, afaik, there isn't one. Anybody know more?

Another issue is the cue itself. Hand signal or shout? The problem with a hand signal may be the that the stage plot can make it difficult for a player to see it, especially if there is something they need to read at the same time.

So, what is the usual way to do this?

And what is your personal preference?

A caveat: if the open section is an entire chorus of the tune, then it's easy. Soloist signals last time (somehow -- how do you want to see or hear that?) and everybody knows when the chorus ends. It's tougher with one chord or just a few.

If it follows a drum solo then the drummer should end with a bar of recognizable time.

[rpjazzguitar]

Big band, one of the sax players in front signals with their hand. The hand has grabbed my attention so far.

Small group, have a leader on stage who can tap their hear or call out “back to the form” and just follow them.

Basically, have one person in charge, the band can follow them. If everyone in the band is in charge they’ll all come
in how they think is correct, and it’ll be a mess. If someone in the band has such a big ego that they can’t do this, fire them. Life is too short to work with stubborn fools.

Agreed about a single person in charge of it, but where in that 4 bars (with a two bar clave all on one chord) should the cue be given?

[AllanAllen]

Agreed about a single person in charge of it, but where in that 4 bars (with a two bar clave all on one chord) should the cue be given?

I would do bar 4. But I could follow someone else’s lead if they were clear and consistent.

[pauln]

Cue should be audible so you do not have to see it
The one leading an open section must own the cue
The cue should be something unusual, very distinct

- drummer: press rolls are traditional
- bass: harmonics, palm pound slide
- guitar: a particular phrase, or chord

The real issue is whether the return to form does so
while maintaining time or utilizing a timed dead stop

[JazzPadd]

Depending on the venue vibe and the band stage presence, perhaps a loud verbal cue, something like GO! might work well, not only as a cue but as a part of the show, too.

[Jimmy blue note]

Everyone should be listening to some degree, and not so fixated on the chart, especially during a free solo section, that they are oblivious to the dynamics of the soloist.
It might not be a bad idea to have a cadence, or distinct musical phrase with a strong sense of closure, that the soloist "plays into" which would serve as a musical "HEY GUYS! WAKE UP! COME IN HERE" at which point it smoothly dovetails into the arranged section. Work this out ahead of time. There's no shame in working things out ahead of time; it's a part of being a professional. If your bandmates can't hear a musical cue at the end of a solo (despite tempo, facial, body language and dynamic indications), then THEY need to work on that aspect in their own individual practice time.
It's OK to make an arrangement, and toss the ball in the court of your bandmates to be aware of and practice how the solo space works. Don't underestimate a bandmate's capacity to hear, or to learn.
The more the band grows into a listening unit, the better everyone will be at making music.

Then again, you can use a TAG ending... it works for circuses.

[Christian Miller]

Play standing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rpjazzguitar]

Everyone should be listening to some degree, and not so fixated on the chart, especially during a free solo section, that they are oblivious to the dynamics of the soloist.
It might not be a bad idea to have a cadence, or distinct musical phrase with a strong sense of closure, that the soloist "plays into" which would serve as a musical "HEY GUYS! WAKE UP! COME IN HERE" at which point it smoothly dovetails into the arranged section. Work this out ahead of time. There's no shame in working things out ahead of time; it's a part of being a professional. If your bandmates can't hear a musical cue at the end of a solo (despite tempo, facial, body language and dynamic indications), then THEY need to work on that aspect in their own individual practice time.
It's OK to make an arrangement, and toss the ball in the court of your bandmates to be aware of and practice how the solo space works. Don't underestimate a bandmate's capacity to hear, or to learn.
The more the band grows into a listening unit, the better everyone will be at making music.

Then again, you can use a TAG ending... it works for circuses.

This is an interesting point. It would work. But, I can't recall seeing a chart where the soloist cues the transition by playing a written out line -- and everybody is supposed to recognize it and realize where the band is with respect to the upcoming transition.

It would require re-doing the charts.

I'd prefer that the cue be given in the last rhythmic phrase before the transition with a loud enough "Go!". If a horn player is the last soloist that might have to be altered.

Or, better yet, a "Last Time!" at the beginning of the last four bar phrase, followed by a "Go!" in the very last bar.

[AllanAllen]

Kind of similar, Jonathan Stout described his charts on a thread here, so I don’t think Im giving away secrets.

He’s got the lead sheet, a solo breakdown and then a separate laminated sheet of swing riffs to play after the solos. They call one out at the end so everyone comes in with the riff. It’s not at the end of an open jam, but it’s kind of similar.

There I said it twice.

[Jimmy blue note]

I can't recall seeing a chart where the soloist cues the transition by playing a written out line -- and everybody is supposed to recognize it and realize where the band is with respect to the upcoming transition.

It would require re-doing the charts.

I do this ALL the time in a way. End of a solo space, make reference to the head in some way. This also solidifies the form with the listening audience. It show you're working with a piece and not playing randomly in search of an ending.
Very few things can form a sense of closure like returning to familiar melodic territory within a solo.

But sure, plenty of tunes have open forms with written in cues. There are bands like Steps Ahead and Mingus's and Maria Schneider's groups where the solo sections are different from each other, each section with a different structure or based on a section of the melody. You can go out, and you use the tune's harmonic and melodic DNA to bring you back in. It's really fresh and works to great effect as a whole. Everybody's gotta be aware and of course the soloist has to know the head and how to work their solo back into structured territory, but it's very effective.

Maybe this isn't the answer that works for you, but it's one way to address the issue of solo space vs structured form.

[Tal_175]

Another idea is to fix the number of loops beforehand. So if it's a 4 bar section, say the soloist plays four mini-choruses (decided beforehand on the rehearsals) and those who can't feel the space can count. It's a useful skill to be able to come in after X bars where X is known.

[rpjazzguitar]

It came up again today.

Typically, a one chord vamp will have a two bar rhythmic structure.

So, a shouted Go! in the next-to-last bar seems easy and unambiguous. And, I know some skilled people who do it that way. I don't see a downside to it, but others seem to.

But, some players insist on cuing that situation as if it was the last chorus of a tune -- a situation in which it's automatic to know where you are in relation to the upcoming transition.

Doing it that way presumes that everybody knows where the two bar chop fits into the underlying 4 bar phrase and hasn't lost count. The reality is that after a long section of Bm11 played in a two bar chop, it's easy enough to lose where you are in the four bar written form.

[starjasmine]

Not too much new to add, just observations on how I've most often seen it done.

I've most often seen the end of an open section cued by the soloist, often with a previously agreed-upon length of the solo. I mean, really, is the soloist going to go on over a four-bar vamp for five minutes and keep it interesting? Nobody is going to have ANY idea how long the solo lasts?

If the soloist can play one handed (e.g trumpet), they'll hold their hand straight up for one bar before the ending or wave it in a circle (like swinging a lariat) to indicate "wrapping up", ideally making eye contact with everyone to be sure they saw the signal. If one bar isn't enough notice, they could do this at the beginning of the last four bars of the four-bar vamp, but then you are counting on people being able to count for four bars :-) Obviously, everyone needs to agree on what the signal will be beforehand.

A big band with a conductor is the most straightforward situation: the conductor keeps count and makes eye contact with everyone ahead of the end of the section and cues the transition. If there's no conductor, the keep-count-and-cue-everyone job gets assigned in advance to someone who's not soloing (maybe another horn player, since that section is typically at the front of the stand).

And the "when I play this phrase it means I'm wrapping up" cue is also a time-honored tradition.

I kind of hate the idea of the yelled verbal cue (it just seems to telegraph "we have no idea wtf we are doing") but the idea of making it part of the show is really clever!

$0.02,

SJ

[Christian Miller]

Tbh I think non verbal communication is one of the most fun things about music…

It helps if you know the music.

I watched Nir Felder’s sidemen (inc Gary Novak) play their way through their tour set together for the first time the other night at a gig (Nir said so) and there were a few loud verbal cues.

The music sounded great of course even though there were a few moments of uncertainty about form.

Maybe we shouldn’t expect the impossible of ourselves? Obvious cues are fine. Use you body, eye contact and voice if you have to.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rpjazzguitar]

Not
And the "when I play this phrase it means I'm wrapping up" cue is also a time-honored tradition.

I kind of hate the idea of the yelled verbal cue (it just seems to telegraph "we have no idea wtf we are doing") but the idea of making it part of the show is really clever!

$0.02,

SJ

Thanks for that. Makes sense.

[starjasmine]

Maybe we shouldn’t expect the impossible of ourselves? Obvious cues are fine. Use you body, eye contact and voice if you have to.

Doing whatever's necessary to avoid a trainwreck is always preferable to the alternative :-) but keeping it together without excess when it's NOT your first time reading the chart is not "expecting the impossible." It's more like the minimum.

[AllanAllen]

It came up again today.

Typically, a one chord vamp will have a two bar rhythmic structure.

So, a shouted Go! in the next-to-last bar seems easy and unambiguous. And, I know some skilled people who do it that way. I don't see a downside to it, but others seem to.

But, some players insist on cuing that situation as if it was the last chorus of a tune -- a situation in which it's automatic to know where you are in relation to the upcoming transition.

Doing it that way presumes that everybody knows where the two bar chop fits into the underlying 4 bar phrase and hasn't lost count. The reality is that after a long section of Bm11 played in a two bar chop, it's easy enough to lose where you are in the four bar written form.

The first situation is what I would expect. The naysayers... if they're keeping count and know where they are the cue isn't for them, they should be quiet and let the guys who need a cue figure it out.

[rpjazzguitar]

The first situation is what I would expect. The naysayers... if they're keeping count and know where they are the cue isn't for them, they should be quiet and let the guys who need a cue figure it out.

In thinking it through, that's where I end up.

Nobody is suggesting that it should be cued only at the start of the 4 bar phrase and that all the players must find the transition point from that.

[rpjazzguitar]

Doing whatever's necessary to avoid a trainwreck is always preferable to the alternative :-) but keeping it together without excess when it's NOT your first time reading the chart is not "expecting the impossible." It's more like the minimum.

Since I have sometimes been the guy who lost count of the four bar form in an extended one-chord, 2 bar clave situation (possibly with a time twisting drum solo) I prefer the fool-proof method to the "everyone should know" method.

If I were cuing it, and I thought I knew where the 4 bar phrase began, I'd call out "last time" and then, in bar 4, I'd call out "Go".

[starjasmine]

@Rick, well it's your gig, so you've got your answer :-)

[Christian Miller]

Doing whatever's necessary to avoid a trainwreck is always preferable to the alternative :-) but keeping it together without excess when it's NOT your first time reading the chart is not "expecting the impossible." It's more like the minimum.

Well hopefully by then you’d know the music a bit better lol.

Hopefully. There’s always a leap of faith with any of this stuff.

Really I also think it’s better not to use vocal cues.

Incidentally one band that makes a lot of basic use of cues in the very structure of the music is Wayne Krantz. It’s really interesting. He has a cue for ‘change tempo’ for example. Not a specified tempo. The drummer will just start a new tempo and the band is good enough to pick up on it after an eighth note or whatever.

One thing that tends to happen in working bands is that the music tends to become less improvised over time…. Things crystallise unless you make a determined effort to disrupt it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

Another idea is to fix the number of loops beforehand. So if it's a 4 bar section, say the soloist plays four mini-choruses (decided beforehand on the rehearsals) and those who can't feel the space can count. It's a useful skill to be able to come in after X bars where X is known.

Defeats the point imo. Just write it in the arrangement if you want to do that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AllanAllen]

One thing that tends to happen in working bands is that the music tends to become less improvised over time…. Things crystallise unless you make a determined effort to disrupt it.

SSSSHHHHHHHHH shut your mouth! Jazz is 100% improvised and nothing is worked out, especially in Duke Ellington recordings.