Cuing after an open section

[rpjazzguitar]

Defeats the point imo. Just write it in the arrangement if you want to do that.


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It touches a more general issue which I've been thinking about.

It sometimes feels like getting very specific and demanding with the chart/arrangement forces the players to have their noses in the chart and worry about errors (unless

If a band is going to go in that direction, the chart will need to be played enough that the musicians can relax, listen and create. But then, some players want to move on and play other things, so comfort may not be achieved, at least, not for everybody.

[AllanAllen]

There are related issues pertaining to leadership and membership which I'll omit from this thread.

Very wise, you don’t make friends with salad.

[Bob_Ross]

We're reading a chart. The chart has an "Open" section, meaning something is looped until a cue. It could be anything from one chord to a series of chords or even a melody line. Let's assume, for the sake of this discussion, that nobody has the thing memorized. That means that people may have their eyes on the chart, not the leader, at least, not all the time.

Let's also assume that upon transition, there's an immediate ensemble passage, so it's essential that everybody knows where the band is just before the transition.

Another potential issue is that the cue isn't always given by the leader. It may be given by the soloist.

Just to offer some context, I spent over 10 years playing in a band* where every single tune in our repertoire had ^^^this exact scenario. So I speak from experience.

And the most important bit of advice I can offer is this: YOU WILL NOT GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. At least not without a semi-lengthy discussion beforehand. There is not a symbol in the vast plethora of standard musical notation that solves this. If anyone in the band expects to be able to sightread this stuff with no rehearsal they are mistaken. Period.

A couple other things I learned over that decade-plus:
- Hand signals work...but make them big. Anyone who is so buried in the chart that they can't see hand signals is the wrong musician for the gig.
- Make sure everyone knows who will give the cue, for any/every cue. That's a handy thing to indicate in the chart, e.g., "sop. sax soloist cues" or "drummer cues" or "conducter cues" ...and then make sure everyone knows who the conducter is!
- Notated cues -- actual notation written in smaller font to indicate the part being played by the cue-ist -- can be a big help. But also include text e.g., "sop. sax plays this 4x" ...and then have someone -- the sop. sax player? the conducter? -- indicate when the 4th X is.
- If it seems like it's a big responsibility for musicians to keep track of all of this information...it is. But no moreso than all the conventional information that's contained in any fully notated chart. It ain't rocket science, but it does require a brain. Again, a musician who can't accept this responsibility is the wrong musician for the gig.

I like to remind myself that us folk playing Jazz or Jazz-adjacent music actually have it easy: We at least get a countoff at the top, and/or the part just before the transition from open to written is almost always in tempo. Orchestral musicians regularly get just a single upbeat to indicate tempo...and they all come in together correctly, routinely.



*this band, in case you're interested.

[pamosmusic]

Kind of similar, Jonathan Stout described his charts on a thread here, so I don’t think Im giving away secrets.

He’s got the lead sheet, a solo breakdown and then a separate laminated sheet of swing riffs to play after the solos. They call one out at the end so everyone comes in with the riff. It’s not at the end of an open jam, but it’s kind of similar.

There I said it twice.

I love that. The Basie band would do that too. No sense ending if the people are still dancing .

[Christian Miller]

I love that. The Basie band would do that too. No sense ending if the people are still dancing .

Well there is if you’re playing a social dance

But yes also

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[rpjazzguitar]

Just to offer some context, I spent over 10 years playing in a band* where every single tune in our repertoire had ^^^this exact scenario. So I speak from experience.

And the most important bit of advice I can offer is this: YOU WILL NOT GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. At least not without a semi-lengthy discussion beforehand. There is not a symbol in the vast plethora of standard musical notation that solves this. If anyone in the band expects to be able to sightread this stuff with no rehearsal they are mistaken. Period.


*this band, in case you're interested.

Thanks for this. I have often thought there should be a symbol for that. It could indicate who cues and exactly when in relation to the upcoming transition. If there was such a symbol, even the faces buried in the chart would know exactly when and where to look for the cue. The person who is to do the cue would know it was him and be sure to give it. I don't think that would require any discussion and it would be hard to get wrong. But, you're right. There is no such thing.

[sgcim]

Someone just screams out, "Letter C!", and they all follow the first guy that comes in.

[rpjazzguitar]

Someone just screams out, "Letter C!", and they all follow the first guy that comes in.

How many bars before the transition does he scream it out?

[sgcim]

How many bars before the transition does he scream it out?

No fixed amount, but it seems like when he thinks that the soloist has shot his wad, and is desperate for the band to come and relieve him.
Usually the soloist has a look on his face like a wounded animal begging to be put out of his misery...

[Christian Miller]

The cueing is based on a sadism vs empathy index?


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[rpjazzguitar]

No fixed amount, but it seems like when he thinks that the soloist has shot his wad, and is desperate for the band to come and relieve him.
Usually the soloist has a look on his face like a wounded animal begging to be put out of his misery...

Without a fixed amount, how do the band members know exactly when the transition is going to happen?

I realize it's easy if it's a whole chorus of solo, but what about the four bar repeated section with a two bar clave and only one chord, vamp situation?

[Christian Miller]

Without a fixed amount, how do the band members know exactly when the transition is going to happen?

I realize it's easy if it's a whole chorus of solo, but what about the four bar repeated section with a two bar clave and only one chord, vamp situation?

Well I don't know about everyone else but I do it like this?

Bib soup solo - YouTube

[rpjazzguitar]

Well I don't know about everyone else but I do it like this?

Bib soup solo - YouTube

I like that approach. As you approach the obvious conclusion of the rhythmic phrase you look up expectantly and when you get to the end you nod or something -- and it's clear.

[Christian Miller]

I like that approach. As you approach the obvious conclusion of the rhythmic phrase you look up expectantly and when you get to the end you nod or something -- and it's clear.

Thanks, it probably comes naturally at the end of a multiple of 4 bars or something, but it's something I intuit.

[rpjazzguitar]

Thanks, it probably comes naturally at the end of a multiple of 4 bars or something, but it's something I intuit.

Even if a band member had lost track of the 4 bar phrase (which, as I've been droning on about, can happen in a one chord, 2 bar clave, vamp), the cue is still clear. This is the way I think it should be done.

Other musicians believe that everyone should know where they are in the 4 bar phrase and the cue should be given at the start of it. That is, 4 bars before the actual transition. Or, if it were an 8 bar phrase, then 8 bars before the transition.

My view is that what people should know is sometimes not what they do know. And that directions should be as foolproof as possible.

[Bob_Ross]

As you approach the obvious conclusion of the rhythmic phrase you look up expectantly and when you get to the end you nod or something

I worked with a composer/bandleader who referred to this as "Giving You The Hairy Eyeball" ...whoever is providing the cue offers an appropriate facial expression to indicate "Ready? 'cuz it's coming soon" and then follows that with the subsequent "...and away we go!" facial expression.

What those actual facial expressions are is immaterial; so long as the band is looking (and listening!) for the cue, it will be painfully obvious to anyone expecting those instructions.

[Christian Miller]

Even if a band member had lost track of the 4 bar phrase (which, as I've been droning on about, can happen in a one chord, 2 bar clave, vamp), the cue is still clear. This is the way I think it should be done.

Other musicians believe that everyone should know where they are in the 4 bar phrase and the cue should be given at the start of it. That is, 4 bars before the actual transition. Or, if it were an 8 bar phrase, then 8 bars before the transition.

My view is that what people should know is sometimes not what they do know. And that directions should be as foolproof as possible.

My view is that it is entirely possible to overthink things

Non verbal communication is the skill to work on, not counting bars. But all of these skills come from playing gigs and so on.

Different people do different things differently. Sometimes you have to learn a new style of doing things.

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[Cal45m]

I prefer a clear verbal cue (“Go!” or “Last time!”) at the top of the final phrase, ideally two bars out. Visual cues are great but not always visible on crowded stages. Having it marked in the chart helps everyone, especially in open vamps. Rehearsing the cue system is key, saves confusion when things get loose.

[sgcim]

Without a fixed amount, how do the band members know exactly when the transition is going to happen?

I realize it's easy if it's a whole chorus of solo, but what about the four bar repeated section with a two bar clave and only one chord, vamp situation?

A lot of the charts just give the player an unlimited amount of measures to play. In that case, the process I described above is used.

[AllanAllen]

My view is that it is entirely possible to overthink things

Non verbal communication is the skill to work on, not counting bars. But all of these skills come from playing gigs and so on.

Different people do different things differently. Sometimes you have to learn a new style of doing things.

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Exactly, someone has to be in charge and everyone else follows them or ruins the tune. This music is only held together by our communal interest in serving the tune.

It is often a raised eyebrow to the drummer who plays a pressed roll with 3 rim clicks and we’re at the one. THE One, hit it or fail. If everyone else goes to the head but the guy who thinks it should be the one of four bars before the head… he biffed it. There’s no pleading your case, it was biffed.

[rpjazzguitar]

Exactly, someone has to be in charge and everyone else follows them or ruins the tune. This music is only held together by our communal interest in serving the tune.
.

A situation I was thinking about is when the person in charge insists on cuing at the start of the written four bar phrase, despite the fact that it's all one chord in a two bar rhythm and other people can lose track of where the band is with respect to the four bars.

So, I wondered if that approach is standard or not, and, if not, what is standard.

[pamosmusic]

A situation I was thinking about is when the person in charge insists on cuing at the start of the written four bar phrase, despite the fact that it's all one chord in a two bar rhythm and other people can lose track of where the band is with respect to the four bars.

So, I wondered if that approach is standard or not, and, if not, what is standard.

Does he tell people that’s what he’s going to do?

[Tal_175]

A situation I was thinking about is when the person in charge insists on cuing at the start of the written four bar phrase, despite the fact that it's all one chord in a two bar rhythm and other people can lose track of where the band is with respect to the four bars.

So, I wondered if that approach is standard or not, and, if not, what is standard.

Just to clarify, you are wondering if cuing the start of the last four bars of the solo section should be sufficient when the rhythm section is punctuating two bar clave? If so, I can't imagine a more obvious cue than the clave rhythm for the band to come in time after the solo. That's if the musicians in the band are familiar with the clave rhythm. If I was the band leader and a musician in the band missed the down beat, I'd ask them to set their metronome to clave rhythm and trade fours with it or record a session and loop those four bars. Let me put it this way, if I realized that I had trouble feeling the start of the next bar after two clave's, I would go home and internalize the clave rhythm more deeply rather than expect someone to hold my hand and shout "now" when I need to come in.

[rpjazzguitar]

Just to clarify, you are wondering if cuing the start of the last four bars of the solo section should be sufficient when the rhythm section is punctuating two bar clave? If so, I can't imagine a more obvious cue than the clave rhythm for the band to come in time after the solo. That's if the musicians in the band are familiar with the clave rhythm. If I was the band leader and a musician in the band missed the down beat, I'd ask them to set their metronome to clave rhythm and trade fours with it or record a session and loop those four bars. Let me put it this way, if I realized that I had trouble feeling the start of the next bar after two clave's, I would go home and internalize the clave rhythm more deeply rather than expect someone to hold my hand and shout "now" when I need to come in.

The musicians always know where they are in the two bar clave. But, after a long stretch it's possible to lose track of which two bars you're in, within the four bar repeat. And, it happens even to decent musicians. Maybe it shouldn't happen but there can be distractions on a bandstand.

If the leader cues reliably exactly 4 bars ahead of the transition then it's pretty easy. Two claves and go. But, in my experience, some leaders think anywhere in the last four bars is just as good. In that situation it might be two claves or it might be one or even just a half bar, I suppose (although I don't see that one). Their idea is that all the players know where they are in the 4 bar repeat so a cue anywhere in those 4 bars means to transition after the 4th bar.

Some leaders give the cue within the two bar clave, which, to me, is unambiguous. The alternative leads to occasional avoidable errors. I'd prefer that the band get it right over the situation where somebody gets it wrong and has that firmly pointed out afterward.

Still other leaders signal four bars to go by holding up 4 fingers then 3 fingers, then 2, then 1 and there's the transition. It's effective if everybody sees the cue.

I appreciate all the responses. I think it's fairly clear that there is a diversity of opinion and experience.

[Tal_175]

The musicians always know where they are in the two bar clave. But, after a long stretch it's possible to lose track of which two bars you're in, within the four bar repeat. And, it happens even to decent musicians. Maybe it shouldn't happen but there can be distractions on a bandstand.

If the leader cues reliably exactly 4 bars ahead of the transition then it's pretty easy. Two claves and go. But, in my experience, some leaders think anywhere in the last four bars is just as good. In that situation it might be two claves or it might be one or even just a half bar, I suppose (although I don't see that one). Their idea is that all the players know where they are in the 4 bar repeat so a cue anywhere in those 4 bars means to transition after the 4th bar.

Some leaders give the cue within the two bar clave, which, to me, is unambiguous. The alternative leads to occasional avoidable errors. I'd prefer that the band get it right over the situation where somebody gets it wrong and has that firmly pointed out afterward.

Still other leaders signal four bars to go by holding up 4 fingers then 3 fingers, then 2, then 1 and there's the transition. It's effective if everybody sees the cue.

I appreciate all the responses. I think it's fairly clear that there is a diversity of opinion and experience.

OK, I see what you mean now. If the leader's signal isn't always in the same point but it varies (approaching the last four, at the down beat of the first bar of the last four or anywhere inside the last four, etc.) then the assumption would be that everyone is in agreement with how the two bar clave patterns are aligned with the form at that point (which is not an unreasonable assumption but it is error prone especially in a large band). I have seen leaders hold up fingers to count the last four as you said above which gives plenty of opportunities for everyone to see the cue. An alternative would be a clear cue just before the first clave pattern of the last four.