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Thought it was a good idea.. Rainy Saturday afternoon at a small town coffee shop. Couple of hours bringing the light of culture and (ahem) art to the locals. I expected to be background jazz and I was. However, the few locals who were there seemed more annoyed that I was taking up space where there children could run around than the fact that there was live music. Not very satisfying.
I think performing is important. That's where the real lessons are. However, around here it's bluegrass and worn out rock tunes. Getting kind of discouraged.
Video.. Sorry for the poor sound quality. Thing is, the playing isn't great but not awful. Was thinking the locals might like it better than they did. Anybody else feeling the lack of an outlet?
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12-31-2024 04:46 PM
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It’s an art form that’s easy to ignore and can’t do much of a show to keep peoples attention. I’ve been lucky to have at least one Jazz fan at even the most indifferent gig.
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Seemed annoyed or expressed their annoyance?
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Seemed.. not expressed. The barista liked it. The soccer moms were ambivalent. And the group that really belonged at a Chuck E Cheese and coveted my space seemed annoyed.
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Don’t be discouraged. IMHO, Maybe it was just the wrong spot or the wrong crowd. I would suggest either try the same location at a different time slot or maybe another location. Originally Posted by Spook410
But do not stop playing.
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Yeah don’t take this the wrong way but it’s hard to know if that was just in your head. Originally Posted by Spook410
Maybe they were annoyed, but if you’re a little anxious or self conscious then you’ll see that judgement where there is none too.
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I sub for a friend semi regularly on his solo gig and it never fails that one time during the gig the manager will come up while I’m playing and whisper “I’m so sorry but someone has asked if you might turn it down.”
I don’t know.
Shrug. I turn it down a bit and live my life.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I hope you will find, as I have over time, that 'anxious', and 'self conscious' are not much of an issue as you get older. If that were a concern I would not post a video in this shark tank. Still, I know that in some settings young men suffer that. Just know that it does get better.
I think my perception of human response is at least reasonable. That, and I don't really mind annoying the occasional citizen. The point is assuming the basic premise of this instance is plausible.. where does one find fun and satisfaction when playing out in more rural settings. I believe there are good solutions but still looking for them.
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Well okay. Noted, I guess. Originally Posted by Spook410
I guess my advice would be to try not to let the venue or the response of people at the venue get to you. Doesn’t sound easy, and it’s probably harder than it sounds, but there it is.
Even in New York, I played ten table Thai Restaurants, and frankly Bar Next Door on Washington Square Park to crowds who didn’t give a crap. Is what it is. Found a wine bar where they did. The Thai restaurant became a regular thing and people started enjoying more and coming out more.
So the other piece of practical advice is that you have to cultivate. There are vanishingly few places where people care about jazz, even in major markets. What you can cultivate, however, is a crowd interested in you and interested in the ambience that you’ve become a part of and created. There isn’t a shortcut for that one. The solo gig I mentioned above is one that my buddy has been playing every Sunday for literally a dozen years. They love him but not because it’s a jazz spot in Toano Virginia.
I grew up in a town about 2,000 and all my first gigs were playing open mics at the local coffee shop, playing duo with a Chet Atkins style country guitar player, and playing solo guitar at the offertory at the Baptist church I went to. On the Chet Atkins front, he’s obviously not a jazz player but there’s a lot of overlap so we had songs in common etc. So you might ask some of the bluegrass cats what they’re into. There’s some overlap there these days with Billy Strings and Punch Brothers and Julian Lage. You might be surprised. You also might not.
Retirement communities and nursing homes are great too.
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Yea...was OK...
Man you need to actually look up once in a while. Also work on your organization of space.
It tends to sound like noodling with no beginning middle or end.
Your skills and guitar sounded fine...but if your entertainment, you need to have some contact with the audience.
Backing tracts tend to get really boring, they tend to more for practice.
Work on not starring at guitar all the time
Use a Looper and try and break up the same sound.
Also try and make better arrangements and use of expanding the Forms with, intros, outros and interludes...Short Vamp that raise the energy level also help draw in audiences.
Generally audiences aren't musicians... LOL. Beautiful playing works for short periods of time. Spelling changes and just getting through tunes gets ... Boring.
Don't take my comments personally. Your playing seems fine, it's the presentation.
I'm a pro... but still play many shit gigs. One of my gigs last week was at a brewery with the nick name of the diaper brewery. Once you get a few people on board... (kids included), you can generally take them for a ride..
But you need to be able to watch the audience and see what they seem to like. Anyway don't get bummed out.
Just try and be more than background music.
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Here’s the advice no one wants to hear ….
Look for the hipsters.
They’re going to show up to places because they like the vibe and they’ll pay a little extra to be somewhere that something cool or interesting or retro or artistic is happening.
I know it’s not what any of us want to hear. But they’re a reliable crowd for a jazz dork in 2025.
Rather than ask the forum, you might ask your neighbors college aged daughter where she thinks might be a cool spot for jazz.
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Wish I didn't agree so much with the comments. Thanks for taking the time and being so tactful.
Unfortunately, noodling over backing tracks is, in fact, boring. Not that I like that answer much.
The practical solution is to find a singer. Mix in a bunch of things people like with the jazz standards. Make it interesting and entertaining. Play at the local vineyards.
Damn.
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First off, it's not your playing. That was fine.
But, there are headwinds. A few that come to mind:
1. You're playing instrumental music (in odd meter in the clip) that your audience probably doesn't know. That's not a recipe for commercial success.
2. You're playing solo. Guitar can be a limited voice before very long, no matter how well you play. To me, Jim Hall is a God, but, at one of his club dates with a gbd trio ... well ... I'm sure there are some players who can do it, but it's not easy.
3. If you're a solo artist playing for a crowd with nobody you know and none of the strangers obviously enjoying the music, how is that supposed to feel to you? What musician would enjoy that? You don't even have bandmates to commiserate with. It helps if there's even one table of your friends in the audience.
4. If you're thinking about being able to build a following, that's not an easy thing to do by playing unfamiliar songs on solo guitar. It's not easy as a band either, although I think that really grooving bands, even jazz bands, can do it. My guess, and it's just a guess, is that the musicianship has to be at a very, very high level. Like, do other guitar players come out to hear and see what you're doing?
5. Some players/bands are more effective than others at engaging an audience. I think a lot goes into have an engaging presentation. Even if you have all that, when you play someplace, a lot of the customers want to have a conversation at their table and you're a potential interference. If they're older, they may be struggling to hear each other even without background sounds. So, you don't know how much to start talking to the audience vs how much to accept a background role.
6. I have a low bar. I'm happy if whoever is there is moving unconsciously to the music. Tapping feet, swaying slightly is fine with me. Dancing is even better.
To sum up, there can be a lot of things that are kind of depressing.
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Just to counter, take five is the top request my group gets. We never play it, but it’s the top requested song by a long shot.1. You're playing instrumental music (in odd meter in the clip) that your audience probably doesn't know. That's not a recipe for commercial success.
I’m really going to sit down and learn it one day…
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Spook,
I have spent the last 20 years doing almost 200 jazz gigs a year. Around 70 of those were solo, another 70 were with my Swing/Gypsy jazz band and about 60 of them were as a sideman in other people's bands. I never used backing tracks on a solo gig. I tried using a looper, but I found the anxiety of timing my feet just right to make that work interfered with my being in the zone one needs to be to play my best, so I mostly just did the Joe Pass thing (though nowhere near Joe's level).
Here are some thoughts:
Some nights the crowd is with me/us, some nights that is not the case. Enjoy the good nights,don't let the bad ones get you down.
A little interaction with the audience goes a long way to getting some positive energy. I do not DJ every tune, but i always try to get folks in the room interested in what I do.
Playing standards goes a lot farther than playing jazz tunes. Beatles tunes were always a hit on my solo gigs. Make no mistake about it, Over the Rainbow will get a better crowd reaction than Epistrophy unless you are gigging at a dedicated jazz club.
Vocals can be better or worse depending on what the venue wants. I have never been able to get a following for a bebop band. Swing/Gypsy jazz seems to go over much better. I have played as a sideman in a Western Swing band and regular folks seemed to like that quite a bit.
Jazz is one of the few genres where a local musician can work and earn a few dollars. Some gigs are about being an entertainer, some are about being wallpaper (you are there strictly for ambience). Volume should be gig appropriate.
The best way to advance your playing is to play in public, full stop.
If you are feeling frustrated, the best thing to do is to tweak things a bit or find a different gig. Some rooms are simply not a good fit for jazz.
Good luck moving forward!
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I agree w all of this, especially the part about playing recognizable tunes. The older I get the more I find that the average person will react to something they know rather than a jazz tune. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Sure you can have a few jazz tunes in a set in a coffee shop gig but the average person there won't know them.
Not necessarily suggesting that you sing or have a vocalist at a coffee shop but the average person listening to music relates to vocals more as well, not instrumentals all night unless you're in a venue that typically features that kind of music.
Play for the audience, not yourself and you'll be successful.
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I suggest you get crackin, if I had more than a couple requests for a tune I'd have already made it a priority to learn it. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I've added tunes to my trio's set list that I might not necessarily like but as I said earlier, play for the audience.
For example, my band is an organ trio and we play Booker T's Green Onions. I resisted playing it for years because I'm not a fan of that tune at all, I'd rather play Jimmy Smith's The Sermon but people always requested G.O. as it's the most recognizable organ tune out there and it never fails to get a positive response.
Here's a clip from an interview
"Have you ever played free?"
"No, I never played free ’cause I wanted to get paid [laughter]. A lot of people asked me, “Why did you play those funk records?” I said, “Look, man, in the record business the record company will keep you on if you sell some records. If you don’t sell any records, you fired.” I know a lot of great, well, not exactly great but a lot of good musicians who could have sustained a little longer if they’d have just bent, just a little. Not a whole lot, just a little. But they wouldn’t do it so they were unemployed. They’re on welfare."
-the late great Sweet Papa Lou Donaldson
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Anytime a request for a jazz tune was made that I did not know, I would tell the requesting person that I did not know it, but if they came back next week, I would play it for them. And the following week, I would play that tune whether they came back or not. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
It was a great way to build up my repertoire of tunes.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Time Out is the 3rd best selling jazz record ever. And, Take 5 is the best known tune from it by far. So, it might not qualify as "unfamiliar to the audience". It raises a question about the rest of the OP's set. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Maybe I should have written "IF you're playing instrumental music that the audience doesn't know, that's not a recipe for commercial success".
I have a regular gig at a place which often has jazz. The audience there is a lot more likely to know jazz tunes than some of the other places I've played.
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My trio regularly performs the new tunes that
I composed and taught them. Then someone
from the audience approaches after to tell us
the're delighted we played their favorite song!
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To me, the tune, the volume, your head-in and out, your solo seemed spot on for a coffee shop wallpaper gig. It could be the day of the week and the time you were there. It could also be location. Rogue River is such a small town .. I imagine if you take your music to a coffee shop in Jacksonville or or Ashland - you will see people tapping their feet while you're providing the background music to their conversations. You may even get a smile. Another idea is to play libraries that bring in musicians, and hospitals via Musicians on Call. Don't be discouraged. Keep playing. You sound good! Originally Posted by Spook410
Last edited by Bflat233; 01-01-2025 at 09:09 PM.
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Without being too sharp about it … a tracks gig can be a little tricky. From the perspective of the player, it’s the best of both worlds — you have a band and don’t have to fool with other people. From the perspective of the listener though, I think it can be the worst of both worlds — you don’t get the energy of a full band and you don’t get the flexibility and ambience of a solo performer.
Reg’s suggestion of using a looper isn’t a bad one. You have to establish the loop unless you have a pretty sophisticated one, but honestly people won’t notice one bit if you intro the tune with a pass through the full changes.
Anyway … I know people like playing with tracks, so I’m not trying to judge … I’m just skeptical that listeners share that enthusiasm
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We might be getting into the actual problem....
I've played many coffee shops, did a couple last year...LOL. usually great people... disclaimer... I'm in SF Ca. Bay area.
Anyway.... what is going to get the attention of audiences that don't really care about the music.
I've found that typical non jazz audiences wake up... when you wake them up. The trick is to keep the volume low and raise the level of the music. I use rhythm and typical blusy rock or R&B feels and licks. It's easy when you have chops... but can still be accomplished using somewhat repeated licks that build.
Think like a simple II V or I IV tune, Oye como va or evil ways etc.... or almost any tune have a Vamp that can be pulled from the Tune...
If you don't have the chops to build rhythmically... use harmonic movement of simple Lick.
Ex. create a lick on 1st chord then use a different lick on the next chord. Now keep the same lick on the 1st chord and create a new version on the 2nd chord. Keep the pattern going. The 1st lick becomes a Base or Reference for a Call and Answer type of feel. ( you can also do this with lots of changes)
Your creating a simple Form that repeats, or implies repeat. Which is easy for non musicians to FEEL
I know... way to simple LOL. But it works and will get one into the direction of developing Shapes for your improv. through using FORM. Beginnings, middles and ends etc...
Will help get rid of the Noddle effect.
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I realize the OP’s video is perhaps not how it actually sounded in the room but that constant ride cymbal gets very fatiguing. Backing tracks in general too. Playing solo in a rubato style and moving in and out of grooves with or without a looper would be more human and maybe better tolerated or more easily ignored
The actual guitar playing sounded good to me.
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Yeah I have a perspective and opinion on this one, which is probably not difficult to divine, but to try and stay out of that realm: Originally Posted by alltunes
I realize the OP’s video is perhaps not how it actually sounded in the room but that constant ride cymbal gets very fatiguing. Backing tracks in general too. Playing solo in a rubato style and moving in and out of grooves with or without a looper would be more human and maybe better tolerated or more easily ignored
The actual guitar playing sounded good to me.
I read an interview with Jamey Aebersold once where the guy asked him why his tracks were so long and his answer was that he wanted to have enough time for a student to play all their “stuff,” flounder around for a bit, and start wandering into new territory.
He’s the OG so a lot of people making tracks follow that framework, and in their defense, they’re making teaching tools and usually think of them that way.
So they’re very useful in that context but might be the opposite of what you want for a gig.
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