Body and Soul at a local session

[Soitainly]

You guys are going to ruin Body and Soul for me. I will now associate the tune with the sound of orcs marching. But can you march to a swing feel.

[Christian Miller]

You guys are going to ruin Body and Soul for me. I will now associate the tune with the sound of orcs marching. But can you march to a swing feel.

I mean… that’s literally how jazz started? So I guess so


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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

You guys are going to ruin Body and Soul for me. I will now associate the tune with the sound of orcs marching. But can you march to a swing feel.

An Orc has a Body but working for Mordor does he have a Soul?

[Christian Miller]

An Orc has a Body but working for Mordor does he have a Soul?

Saruman clearly hasn’t read the HoME. Filthy casual


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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Saruman clearly hasn’t read the HoME. Filthy casual


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Casual? I always admire the British politeness.

EDIT: Unless they're ratted.

[Christian Miller]

You can also view it as grating insincerity

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[CliffR]

Gandalf reacts to orcs having babies - YouTube

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Gandalf reacts to orcs having babies - YouTube

Seems like Gandalf thinks that orcs have a Body and a Soul. Or at least it dawns to him.

[CliffR]

Seems like Gandalf thinks that orcs have a Body and a Soul. Or at least it dawns to him.

Yep - the wives and babies thing is an innovation introduced by Rings Of Power. Ignoring that, I believe Tolkien did at one point realise the question of whether orcs have souls was a vexing one, but I don't know much more than that. I suspect Christian does . Ah, I see he's already mentioned this "orcs have kids, or don’t, were automatons, or corrupted humans, or elves. (Orcs were a big theological issue because if they had souls they had to be redeemable under Catholic doctrine.)"

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Yep - the wives and babies thing is an innovation introduced by Rings Of Power. Ignoring that, I believe Tolkien did at one point realise the question of whether orcs have souls was a vexing one, but I don't know much more than that. I suspect Christian does . Ah, I see he's already mentioned this "orcs have kids, or don’t, were automatons, or corrupted humans, or elves. (Orcs were a big theological issue because if they had souls they had to be redeemable under Catholic doctrine.)"

The Anglicans do not have that doctrine? I thought they were mainly Catholics with a Queen instead of a Holy Papa.

EDIT: And the right to marry a new woman of course if the first one doesn't fit.

[CliffR]

The Anglicans do not have that doctrine? I thought they were mainly Catholics with a Queen instead of a Holy Papa.

EDIT: And the right to marry a new woman of course if the first one doesn't fit.

No idea

[Christian Miller]

The Anglicans do not have that doctrine? I thought they were mainly Catholics with a Queen instead of a Holy Papa.

EDIT: And the right to marry a new woman of course if the first one doesn't fit.

Depends on the Anglican. Poshos yes. More Catholic than the Catholics.


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[Christian Miller]

Yep - the wives and babies thing is an innovation introduced by Rings Of Power. Ignoring that, I believe Tolkien did at one point realise the question of whether orcs have souls was a vexing one, but I don't know much more than that. I suspect Christian does . Ah, I see he's already mentioned this "orcs have kids, or don’t, were automatons, or corrupted humans, or elves. (Orcs were a big theological issue because if they had souls they had to be redeemable under Catholic doctrine.)"

It’s not the only issue

‘..orcs had life and multiplied after manner of the children of Iluvatar…’

For example Bolg was the son of Azog according to the hobbit

The whole orcs being born in a birth sac or whatever is Peter Jackson’s solution to this issue and makes sense from a secular storytelling perspective. (Quite how this relates to their stated Elvish origins is a headscratcher but hey ho.)

But the problem with this is then you have to credit Saruman and presumably the other baddies with the ability to create true life from the inanimate, and it’s a big thing for Tolkien that only Iluvatar (God) can do that. So the LOTR movie is heresy I guess lol?

So they definitely had kids. That has some rather unfortunate implications which Tolkien to his credit was troubled by. Orcs are pretty problematic in any case.

In terms of morality can you have your heroes guiltlessly massacre those who are really victims of generational abuse? (‘Twisted’ by Morgoth.) The creatures that became the orcs etc - elves in the published texts - originally had souls. If the Easterlings can be empathised with in the text as radicalised victims of evil to some extent, how about the orcs, trolls etc?

Critics of LoTR have long raised that as an objection, and is an issue with the published texts.

Again I appreciate Tolkien for having at least having qualms about this. How many potboiler fantasy writers just have armies of semi-human mooks that are understood to be just inherently bad. It’s a bit suss as the kids say.

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[CliffR]

For example Bolg was the son of Azog according to the hobbit

Ah yes, and confirmed in an LOTR appendix if I remember rightly.

it’s a big thing for Tolkien that only Iluvatar (God) can do that

The exception being Aule creating the dwarves. When Illuvatar is pissed and Aule responds with a more to destroy them, they cower, suggesting they're already 'animate'. I seem to recall that what Aule did was somehow related to Tolkien's notion of sub creation, in which he himself indulged. And this *maybe* brings us back to Joyce. But I may just be going off on one at this point.

One way out of the soul problem, assuming orcs are corrupted elves, would be to propose that the elven souls exited the bodies during torture and before their ultimate corruption. Maybe? But if 'soul' is synonymous with 'animating spirit', I guess not?

[Doctor Jeff]

Dang, I'm pretty sure we had this exact debate back in high school in the '70s. Can't remember how it turned out.

It was a Presbyterian high school, so doubt the conversation went too much into whether corrupted elvish humanoids had souls and were capable of salvation.

The problem I had with the Jackson movies, which otherwise I liked a lot, is the massive number of orcs and the tremendous slaughter which ensued. One man (or dwarf) vs one orc is one thing, but one dwarf dispatching 40 pointy-eared critters with one swing of an axe is a different kettle of fish.

According to Wiki: "In Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, orcs appear as a brutish, aggressive, ugly, and malevolent race of monsters, contrasting with the benevolent Elves. He described their origins inconsistently, including as a corrupted race of elves, or bred by the Dark Lord Morgoth, or turned to evil in the wild. Tolkien's orcs serve as a conveniently wholly evil enemy that could be slaughtered without mercy. The orc was a sort of "hell-devil" in Old English literature, and the orc-né (pl. orc-néas, "demon-corpses") was a race of corrupted beings and descendants of Cain, alongside the elf, according to the poem Beowulf. Tolkien adopted the term orc from these old attestations, which he professed was a choice made purely for "phonetic suitability" reasons."

Interestingly, Tolkien was German by ethnicity but was born in South Africa. His father died when he was young, and he went with his mother and brother to England, where her family lived. He fought in WW1 at the Somme and was invalided for quite awhile due to trench fever.

I have to think a lot of the war scenes were inspired by his experience on the front lines of WW1.

[pamosmusic]

Interestingly, Tolkien was German by ethnicity but was born in South Africa. His father died when he was young, and he went with his mother and brother to England, where her family lived. He fought in WW1 at the Somme and was invalided for quite awhile due to trench fever.

I have to think a lot of the war scenes were inspired by his experience on the front lines of WW1.

Yeah I remember reading that he was always a bit amused/frustrated about the popular interpretation of the Ring as a metaphor for nuclear power because the books were released when they were. But that he considered the Ring to be a metaphor for any sort of power over others and its tendency to corrupt the wielder. And of course he started world building for the books while he was in the trenches (so long before any non physicist would have the slightest notion of fission, let alone its potential as a weapon) and has said his battles — in particular the way the villains throw orcs at rock walls hoping just to overwhelm them — was directly inspired by his experience in WWI.

[Christian Miller]

Ah yes, and confirmed in an LOTR appendix if I remember rightly.



The exception being Aule creating the dwarves. When Illuvatar is pissed and Aule responds with a more to destroy them, they cower, suggesting they're already 'animate'. I seem to recall that what Aule did was somehow related to Tolkien's notion of sub creation, in which he himself indulged. And this *maybe* brings us back to Joyce. But I may just be going off on one at this point.

One way out of the soul problem, assuming orcs are corrupted elves, would be to propose that the elven souls exited the bodies during torture and before their ultimate corruption. Maybe? But if 'soul' is synonymous with 'animating spirit', I guess not?

I think what was meant was that Iluvatar had given them life at that moment and that is why they quailed. The dwarves were creations of Aule but blessed by the One.

It’s kind of the central philosophical plank of the whole legendarium - the nature of genuine creativity or Art, subcreation coming from the divine/the universe and false creativity, contrivance born of Ego and the impulse to dominate or shape via will.

This is a way of looking at things I’ve often heard from musicians whether they couch it in theist terms or not.

Of course Melkor’s first action is to be a total vibe killer at a jam session. I don’t know if I’d regard a bad improvisor as the root of all worldly evil but Tolkien obviously knew some really bad players.


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[Christian Miller]

Dang, I'm pretty sure we had this exact debate back in high school in the '70s. Can't remember how it turned out.

It was a Presbyterian high school, so doubt the conversation went too much into whether corrupted elvish humanoids had souls and were capable of salvation.

I couldn’t have cared less in any case haha.

The problem I had with the Jackson movies, which otherwise I liked a lot, is the massive number of orcs and the tremendous slaughter which ensued. One man (or dwarf) vs one orc is one thing, but one dwarf dispatching 40 pointy-eared critters with one swing of an axe is a different kettle of fish.

Yes I mean there’s the skateboarding and the dwarf tossing jokes as well lol.

It all gets a bit ridiculous and then it reaches an extreme with the Hobbit movies (the first one I quite liked though,)

According to Wiki: "In Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, orcs appear as a brutish, aggressive, ugly, and malevolent race of monsters, contrasting with the benevolent Elves. He described their origins inconsistently, including as a corrupted race of elves, or bred by the Dark Lord Morgoth, or turned to evil in the wild. Tolkien's orcs serve as a conveniently wholly evil enemy that could be slaughtered without mercy. The orc was a sort of "hell-devil" in Old English literature, and the orc-né (pl. orc-néas, "demon-corpses") was a race of corrupted beings and descendants of Cain, alongside the elf, according to the poem Beowulf. Tolkien adopted the term orc from these old attestations, which he professed was a choice made purely for "phonetic suitability" reasons."

Orca has the same root.

Interestingly, Tolkien was German by ethnicity but was born in South Africa. His father died when he was young, and he went with his mother and brother to England, where her family lived. He fought in WW1 at the Somme and was invalided for quite awhile due to trench fever.

I have to think a lot of the war scenes were inspired by his experience on the front lines of WW1.

For sure.

I think the movies are so well done and impressive people often confuse Jackson’s version with what Tolkien himself wrote. The classic one is Sauron ending up as this (quite comedic) floating eye while in the books this was like, y’know, a metaphor and Sauron had an actual body.

(I love the sort of frantic looking around the eye does as Bara-dur collapses btw.)

The changes are very numerous but by and large quite subtle and add up to very good movies (by and large), especially in the first movie which is about as good an adaptation of a book that has ever been done.

I’m not getting those vibes from RoP.

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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I couldn’t have cared less in any case haha.



Yes I mean there’s the skateboarding and the dwarf tossing jokes as well lol.

It all gets a bit ridiculous and then it reaches an extreme with the Hobbit movies (the first one I quite liked though,)



Orca has the same root.



For sure.

I think the movies are so well done and impressive people often confuse Jackson’s version with what Tolkien himself wrote. The classic one is Sauron ending up as this (quite comedic) floating eye while in the books this was like, y’know, a metaphor and Sauron had an actual body.

(I love the sort of frantic looking around the eye does as Bara-dur collapses btw.)

The changes are very numerous but by and large quite subtle and add up to very good movies (by and large), especially in the first movie which is about as good an adaptation of a book that has ever been done.

I’m not getting those vibes from RoP.

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I remember why I came to this forum: in order to learn from experts.

[Christian Miller]

Just don’t get me on to Trek


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[CliffR]

I think what was meant was that Iluvatar had given them life at that moment and that is why they quailed.

Right - I was totally misremembering that .

[CliffR]

I couldn’t have cared less in any case haha.



Yes I mean there’s the skateboarding and the dwarf tossing jokes as well lol.

It all gets a bit ridiculous and then it reaches an extreme with the Hobbit movies (the first one I quite liked though,)



Orca has the same root.



For sure.

I think the movies are so well done and impressive people often confuse Jackson’s version with what Tolkien himself wrote. The classic one is Sauron ending up as this (quite comedic) floating eye while in the books this was like, y’know, a metaphor and Sauron had an actual body.

(I love the sort of frantic looking around the eye does as Bara-dur collapses btw.)

The changes are very numerous but by and large quite subtle and add up to very good movies (by and large), especially in the first movie which is about as good an adaptation of a book that has ever been done.

I’m not getting those vibes from RoP.

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I feel the same about the movies. The departures were not egregious. I could even put up with the dwarf tossing jokes. But Legolas the skateboarder was too much. And then there's him in the last Hobbit movie jumping from one falling ice block to another much like Super Mario.

You sure about Sauron having a body in the books? I seem to remember he lost his body when Isildur cut the ring from his finger?

[Christian Miller]

I feel the same about the movies. The departures were not egregious. I could even put up with the dwarf tossing jokes. But Legolas the skateboarder was too much. And then there's him in the last Hobbit movie jumping from one falling ice block to another much like Super Mario.

You sure about Sauron having a body in the books? I seem to remember he lost his body when Isildur cut the ring from his finger?

Yep. He’s physically present when Gollum is being tortured. Gollum mentions that he’s only got nine fingers.

There’s stuff like Islldur doesn’t defeat Sauron, he cuts the finger off and claims the ring after Sauron is (seemingly killed).

EDIT: actually I’m not quite right to say the Eye is purely metaphor. I’d forgot that it is referenced as an actual thing in the text. But actually it’s not quite so clear cut. And nowhere in the movie does it explicitly state Sauron doesn’t have a physical body.

The text for its part is far from clear. Kind of Tolkien’s style haha.

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[CliffR]

Yep. He’s physically present when Gollum is being tortured. Gollum mentions that he’s only got nine fingers.

There’s stuff like Islldur doesn’t defeat Sauron, he cuts the finger off and claims the ring after Sauron is (seemingly killed).

EDIT: actually I’m not quite right to say the Eye is purely metaphor. I’d forgot that it is referenced as an actual thing in the text. But actually it’s not quite so clear cut. And nowhere in the movie does it explicitly state Sauron doesn’t have a physical body.

The text for its part is far from clear. Kind of Tolkien’s style haha.

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I just found this on TolkienGateway.net: "After his defeat in the War of the Last Alliance, Sauron lost his ability to form a physical body for a great while."

So yeah, looks like the loss of his body was only temporary. How much do you charge for Tolkien lessons?

[Christian Miller]

I just found this on TolkienGateway.net: "After his defeat in the War of the Last Alliance, Sauron lost his ability to form a physical body for a great while."

So yeah, looks like the loss of his body was only temporary. How much do you charge for Tolkien lessons?

I fall asleep to calm-voiced podcasts on this stuff atm. I think it’s gone in by osmosis.

Wish I could retain useful information.


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