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Okay, so what do you hear? I don't hear E there, but vocals are really hard for me to pull notes from.
Originally Posted by Bop Head
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10-01-2024 09:47 AM
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Frank! Originally Posted by AllanAllen
He doesn’t always go melody straight up right there but he does often hit that blue note.
easier to hear on this one:
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Almost like he does F the first time and E the second time. This is in reference to the other version Bop Head posted. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Again … not defending this specific choice because I’m quite sure I got it from the real book when I was yet a babe in the woods.
But also we can get a bit too hung up on these things … if someone says what’s your favorite recording of Body and Soul … I probably say Coltrane, Coleman Hawkins, Ella, in that order. And all of them embellish the living hell out of the melody.
Had a student transcribing the melody to Time After Time from Chet Baker recently and this week I had him also go back and listen to Coltrane and Ella and also just learn it from the Real Book so he can start doing some simple rhythmic embellishments. You have to know how to interpret stuff and decide what you like too.
I sent another student home to learn Lady Bird for her college audition and she came back with these little chromatic doohickies over the Ab and Am, to which I said …. “Chet much?” … and she said “yep.”
So proud.
And anyway I like the A in bar three and the E in bar seven. Freaking sue me, already.
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Yeah. And it makes sense. Very orchestral post war pop vibe in that one. The one I posted has a jazz band behind him arranged by Quincy, so it would make sense that he interprets things a little bluer in the latter recording. Which is nice. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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So, let's get a straw man involved. The Peter Bernstein of it all. If I play the tune with him, what happens then? I play F and he does E, then lays into me because I don't know the tune. Then I slap back with Acktually, the note is fluid, Frank hit's both F and E in different bars in different recordings. It sounds like he does F in bar 7 and E in bar 15 of the second recording, opposite of Bop Head's post.
The real kicker is that EVERY tune has 100 versions with little details like this. If I'm playing along with another instrument, we can't just be 1/2 step off randomly, that sounds like a mistake no matter how you justify it afterwards.
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Of course Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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And if you really want to wow ‘em, here’s the original piano sheet from which that snippet comes. Not only was it in C, but there’s a long and very nice intro to B&S that nobody knows. I only found it because I once backed a singer who included it in her performance. When we discussed her list on the phone, she said “I hope you know the intro”. I replied, “Of course” and started searching for it frantically as soon as we hung up. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Like many show tunes, the original B&S avoided far out extensions and most often used modulations for effect. Look at the multiple key signatures in the intro for a perfect example. Show tunes are there for the lyrics, emotionality and context they add. They’re part of the story being told, not vehicles for virtuosos.
Jazz has pulled a lot of show tunes totally out of their original musical context and made them something else. This is great, and I love it - but the whole band has to be in on the secret. If the piano is playing it straight, whoever’s playing the head should respect that. Nothing sounds worse than trying to get a band member to play something different by playing what you want loudly over what he or she is playing.
Of course, if it’s just a clam there’s a general rule: if no one groans or glares at you, play it again. If no one groans or glares at you, it’s a new lick
If you’re going to throw accidentals into a line most people play straight, you need to let the rest of the band know about it beforehand. When the line and the comping clash by a half tone on a prominent note, it usually sounds bad.
You handled it well, pamo.Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 10-01-2024 at 10:57 AM.
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This is a good question. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I do happen to know from experience that if you play something and Peter Bernstein asks you why, the correct answer is always a recording. So if you were like ... Frank! He'd go ... hmm ... okay.
(I know this because he called bullshit on me once and I couldn't come up with a good reason why, of course)
As for the less straw-manny hypothetical ... there are two situations.
If you're playing the melody and someone else is accompanying, then who cares? F sounds good over a Db chord. So does E. they're different flavors. Maybe the accompanist can try to agree the second time through, but more likely they just keep playing Db and call that E a blue note.
If you're both playing the melody, then the pitches are the least of your problems in an American Songbook tune. The rhythms are so interpretive that you'll need to have it worked out in the first place, and presumably you would've worked out the pitches as well.
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Don't be pathetic, it's just an E natural in Db. It's supposed to, and does, convey a blue feel So sing or play it like that. Virtually none of the vocalists sing it exactly as written, they sing it as they feel it.
So should we, unless we need to slavishly copy a lead sheet in case somebody says something. Jesus.
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If Pete was comping he’d probably make space for you to do either. If you were comping for Pete and you clashed with his melody note, it could be a teachable moment. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Actually for sort of simple, swinging phrasing on melodies, he suggested I transcribe Jazz Messengers heads. Theres that self-titled album with the shorter era group that’s all standards, for example.
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This coming from the “oooooooo your A natural clashes a bit” guy. Originally Posted by ragman1
ZzZzZzZz
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While we're at it, the lead sheet writes that bar like this:
That triplet and the last bar is 'body-and-soul', very quickly. A lot of performers do that but we tend to go body AND soul, emphasizing the blue note. And so do the really good ones, in fact they can go all over the place.
Just saying.
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It clashed a whole lot because the piano didn't support it . Fool yourself and go funny, please do. And let's hear about it constantly for the next three years! Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Zzzzzzzzzzzz
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So, yeah, in that case it would all be fine. But if I'm doubling up the melody with a horn in my group, or at a jam... it gets messy. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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These guys don't mess about :-)
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Oscar Moore is criminally underappreciated. I would guess he's doing the E there by how bluesy it sounds.
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I mean, if we're really concerned about clashes here ... F natural over what is usually Gb7, B natural over what should be the E diminished, that monster descending line from C, B, Bb, F ... B, Bb, A, E (so yes, not only E natural in that spot, but a pretty hip chromatic thing) ... to Bb, A, Ab into B natural (the b7 over the tonic chord) Originally Posted by AllanAllen
And that's all just in his first eight.
Hip af
It's really hard to hear piano in the mix, but fairly certain there's a Gb7 in the Gb7 spot, E diminished in that spot (definitely E in the bass there), but a descending dominant thing in the piano along with his cool line there so that would be orchestrated to some degree probably. Then again Nat King Cole is also criminally underrated as a pianist, so he might've just caught it by the time Oscar had gotten to the resolving chord.
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Yeah I think on a tune like this, probably you don't double the melody at a session for this reason. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
With something that has a little bounce to it ... maybe like All the Things or something ... there are some fairly typical ways to swing up the rhythms (anticipate beat one, for example) that a really good pair of horns will be able to make happen on the fly. With your group, just write the melody out the way you want it, preferably in a way that gives you a little space to embellish the way you want. Not too many rhythms or melodic embellishments or whatever.
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Yeah, I'm starting to make charts for my group. Wish I could have gone to see Jonathan Stout this weekend when he was in Chicago. I would have loved to see what his charts look like in person. He gave me a written description in a different thread. It seems like charts will be the way to go if I'm going to switch to subbing guys out all the time now.
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Yeah, for two melody instruments, a little planning is probably the move. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Also writing it gives you the opportunity for some light arranging which is always a good thing
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Sorry, couldn't resist :-)
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On both Sinatra versions I hear him doing an Eb instead of an Enatural at the end of bar 7. He's doing it a half step down, so I'm transposing up a halfstep to where the Real Book has it). This is only the first chorus of both.
The controversal A note that started all this, on the Coltrane version I hear it as the beginning note of an enclosure, where he goes A, Ab, G, Ab. Ab is the target note.
I feel like the tune Body & Soul holds many secrets, and all the subtle differences between all the different versions are ways of trying to unlock it.
For instance, with Sinatra's version, he doesn't hit that blue E natural. Maybe it was too obvious for him, it would have stuck out and been too bluesy for him. The cool thing about Sinatra is how he never oversells a song, he never sings just to show off his virtuosity and cleverness. He just sings it straight and lets the sound of his voice deliver the tune.
I went on a Sinatra binge after I read Miles' autobiography, and that was part of what I took away. I had a boxset of his Reprise years, which was later in his career, so he was even more straight. Miles also played stuff straight and let the sound of his horn carry the tune. He didn't do too much fancy-pants elaborations on the melody either.
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It's a fact that Sinatra tends to sing them straight. Very useful for wanting to hear the melodies of unfamiliar songs.
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