Playing Scales in 4ths, 5ths, etc.

[the*doctor]

Hey everyone, I've recently started to learn strictly jazz guitar at the conservatorium and have started to learn major scale fingerings, so that I can play a major scale in any key anywhere on the neck.

Anyway, my teacher told me to practice these scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, and 7ths, so that when it comes to improv, I won't just be stuck in the mindset of running up and down the scale.

I know how to play in 3rds - up 2 notes back one, etc. e.g. g-b-a-c-b-d, so on.

But can anybody tell me the formula for the others?

Thanks

[FatJeff]

The simple thing is the formula, the hard thing is fingering it. :-)

For 3rds:
1-3 2-4 3-5 4-6 5-7 6-8 7-9 8

For 4ths:
1-4 2-5 3-6 4-7 5-8 6-9 7-3 8

For 5ths:
1-5 2-6 3-7 4-8 5-9 6-10 7-11 8

etc...

[the*doctor]

Hey Jeff, thanks heaps! I looked around on the net buy couldn't find these.
Cheers

[thenoviceguitarist]

Hey doctor check out this vid. It's an early clinic with the master, John Scofield. He talks about good ways to get something out of a scale by breaking it up, playing intervals, etc. There's a few other parts to it on youtube:

YouTube - John Scofield -On Improvisation I.

[JohnW400]

You should also play all the 7th chord , 2 octave arpeggios that way as well. Breaking them up into intervals.

3rds you would do backwards: 3-1, 5-3, 7-5, 8-7 etc and as diads
4/5's 1-5, 3-7 , 5-8, 7-3 etc
6/7 1-7, 3-8, 5-3,7-5 etc
octaves

You could do tenths and maybe stick to one octave.

The two that I really like are the 4/5's on the maj7b5 and 7b5 (all tritones).

[Swingman]

What exactly are 10ths? Using C as an example.....is it playing together C and E + octave?

[JohnW400]

Yes. tenths are C and E with the E an octave above .

C D E F G A B C, D E.

First few chords of Blackbird are tenths (except for the G drone of course)

[SteveCarter]

Originally Posted by the*doctor

Hey everyone, I've recently started to learn strictly jazz guitar at the conservatorium and have started to learn major scale fingerings, so that I can play a major scale in any key anywhere on the neck.

Anyway, my teacher told me to practice these scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, and 7ths, so that when it comes to improv, I won't just be stuck in the mindset of running up and down the scale.

I know how to play in 3rds - up 2 notes back one, etc. e.g. g-b-a-c-b-d, so on.

But can anybody tell me the formula for the others?

Thanks

Take a look at these exercises:
http://frogstoryrecords.com/
I refer to these as "scints" -- scales in intervals. Notice that in addition to diatonic intervals, I also write out constant interals: a major third above each scale tone; a minor third above each scale tone, etc.

Also, you'll want to practice your scales in various sequences:
http://frogstoryrecords.com/
Steve

[the*doctor]

Cool, thanks for all the replies! There's just so many things to learn, I'd better get started

[bobsguitars09]

When played in 5th's how is it that the 7 or B in the key of C to the 11 or F is a 5th? isnt it a tritone? to get a 5th from the 7 or B wouldnt you have to go outside the key and play B then F#? what am I missing here?

[bako]

Within the major scale every interval has major and minor versions.

3rds in C Major

Major 3rds---CE/FA/GB
Minor 3rds---DF/EG/AC/BD

5th's in C Major

Perfect 5th's---CG/DA/EB/FC/GD/AE
Diminished 5th---BF

[JonR]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

When played in 5th's how is it that the 7 or B in the key of C to the 11 or F is a 5th? isnt it a tritone? to get a 5th from the 7 or B wouldnt you have to go outside the key and play B then F#? what am I missing here?

As bako says, it's a diminished 5th. The others are perfect 5ths.
They're all 5ths because they're 5 notes (we only count letters). If B is "1st" then F is "5th" (BCDEF).
B-F
B-F#
Bb-F
Bb-F#
Bb-Fb
B#-F#

- all "5ths". Some perfect (7 half-steps), some diminished (6 half-steps, ie tritone), one augmented (8 half-steps). (There are other possibilities you're much less likely to find, involving B# and/or Fb.)

F-B, btw, also a tritone, is an augmented 4th.

BTW, what SteveCarter calls "scints" are sometimes called "melodic patterns". There's an almost infinite variety of these, and you'll find 112 of them (!) here:
http://www.zentao.com/guitar/patterns/
They are a much more useful and interesting (and musical!) way of practising scales than just running up and down. Once you know a scale pattern - once it's comfortably under your fingers to run up and down it, your fingers know their places - I suggest you NEVER practice it that way, and only practice it using some kind of melodic patterns, or arpeggios. (If you practice by running scales, you're likely to lapse into running scales when improvising.)
Melodic patterns can often suggest phrases you can insert into solos. The really exciting step is when you start changing note values (some of Steve's scints already do this). Ie, melodic patterns start off as just strings of 8ths, triplets or 16ths - exercises, basically. But if you vary the note lengths, suddenly you find yourself playing TUNES. You sound (almost!) like a proper jazz improviser! Even a composer...
Once you get the principle of the patterns, you can usually invent your own variations. A useful thinking exercise and challenge.

[bobsguitars09]

Excellent ! Thank you !

What about Fingerings? if I am doing three note per string shapes. Do I deviate from the fingerings I use or should I stay with the same fingerings? even the odd ones like when you play sevenths?

[bobsguitars09]

so when we Ascend we just do everything the same. what about Descending? do we play different notes to notes?

[JonR]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

Excellent ! Thank you !

What about Fingerings? if I am doing three note per string shapes. Do I deviate from the fingerings I use or should I stay with the same fingerings? even the odd ones like when you play sevenths?

Do whatever you need to do.
Fingerings are not critical and should be flexible. There will be several ways to play each of those patterns.

Part of the whole process is learning the fretboard and breaking out of box scale patterns, or 3 nps patterns. Learning the notes. You start to see the fretboard (in any one key) as just one big pattern, which you can take positional chunks out of as you need to - and move between positions freely and smoothly.

It doesn't matter if (for a while) fingering slows you down a little; or you're slowed down by having to find alternative fingerings. That's an important learning process, weaning yourself off an adherence to one kind of fingering. It's possible to be imprisoned by technique.

But don't abandon what you know! Use it as a foundation to branch out from.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

so when we Ascend we just do everything the same. what about Descending? do we play different notes to notes?

Sorry I didn't check the melodic patterns link I posted, and I thought they showed the full patterns, with descents too. They just give you a couple of "cells" of the pattern, to show the formula, which you then need to work out right up the scale (and back down).

Here's an example of one entire pattern - C major 7th position across 2 octaves - with descent as well as ascent.
I like to invert the pattern when descending so, in this case on the way up, the 4-note "cell" of the pattern is "down-1/up-1/up-2/down-1" (in scale steps that is). Ie starting with C-B-C-E, moving on to D-C-D-F, etc.
Coming down, it starts with C-D-C-A moving to B-C-B-G - ie the cell is inverted, which allows it to move down the scale in degrees as neatly as it moved up.
But you could descend with the same cell pattern: C-B-C-E followed by B-A-B-D (ie dropping a 4th from E to B in order to bring the cell down the scale in degrees).
(This stuff is easier to picture and to play than to describe in words!)

Each range of the pattern ends on the keynote, to nail the major key tonality of it. But you don't need to do this either, you could stop anywhere or just carry on. Or indeed, start anywhere in the scale pattern.

[bobsguitars09]

Thank you JohnR!

so. For 3rds UP it would be C E D F E G F A G B A C But on the way down it would be C A B G A F G E F D E C?

[bako]

CE--DF--EG--FA--etc
EC--FD--GE--AF--etc
CE--FD--EG--AF--etc
EC--DF--GE--FA--etc

A few possibilities ascending, also available descending.

These can be played as 8th's or 16th's at various starting points in the measure.
They can also be played as duples moving along a triplet subdivision.

[bobsguitars09]

just to clarify. For 3rds UP it would be C E D F E G F A G B A C But on the way down it would be C A B G A F G E F D E C? so no matter what one you do (3rds-4ths-5ths) you do the same thing on the way down the fretboard?

[bako]

That is one possibility. I presented a few other variations.

[bobsguitars09]

Originally Posted by bako

CE--DF--EG--FA--etc
EC--FD--GE--AF--etc
CE--FD--EG--AF--etc
EC--DF--GE--FA--etc

A few possibilities ascending, also available descending.

These can be played as 8th's or 16th's at various starting points in the measure.
They can also be played as duples moving along a triplet subdivision.

Excellent!! thanks again

[LvJz]

Originally Posted by bako

CE--DF--EG--FA--etc
EC--FD--GE--AF--etc
CE--FD--EG--AF--etc
EC--DF--GE--FA--etc

A few possibilities ascending, also available descending.

These can be played as 8th's or 16th's at various starting points in the measure.
They can also be played as duples moving along a triplet subdivision.

Yup, this guy has it.

Try and apply this to diatonic 6ths and 7th as well. Large intervallic jumps can be fun on the ear... and challenging on the fingers!

[jmstritt]

One thing about learning patterns, and intervals and such. Make sure that you practice them ascending, descending, and in combinations. For instance, if you are doing the scale in triads...

C-E-G-D-F-A-E-G-B-F-A-C
G-E-C-A-F-D-B-G-E-C-A-F
C-E-G-A-F-D-E-G-B-C-A-F
G-E-C-D-F-A-B-G-E-F-A-C

Sometimes you hear players that only practice one variation and you can hear them hit roadblocks in their improvising. You can do the same things with intervals...

C-E-D-F-E-G-F-A-G-B-A-C
E-C-F-D-G-E-A-F-B-G-C-A
C-E-F-D-E-G-A-F-G-B-C-A
E-C-D-F-G-E-F-A-B-G-A-C

I showed that example using thirds, but ovbiously you can do it with any interval. I like doing it with fourths myself, but at any rate it should really help give you more control on the fretboard.

[pierre richard]

I sometimes start on the third or fifth instead of the root...the inner modes of the scale..it sounds a little "lighter" than starting and stopping on the root...

time on the instrument...pierre

[bobsguitars09]

Would it be just as important to apply all these concepts to playing through chords in a key? Cmajor7 Em7 Dm7 Fmajor 7?

How would one apply these concepts to playing arpeggios?

[JohnW400]

thirds/seconds backwards (e-c, g-e, b-g, c-b, ect 2 octaves)
fifths/fourths ( c-g, e-b, g-c, b-e, ect ect 2 octaves)
sevenths/ sixths (c-b, e-c, g-e, b-g ect 2 octaves)
octaves
tenths/ninths if your so inclined

of course you can do them in any direction and as double stops.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

Would it be just as important to apply all these concepts to playing through chords in a key? Cmajor7 Em7 Dm7 Fmajor 7?

How would one apply these concepts to playing arpeggios?

Some of the patterns are arpeggios . (Eg if you play a scale as CEG DFA EGB etc.)
IOW, rather than adapting arpeggios to this technique, I'd go vice versa: look for ways of drawing arps out of a scale when practising melodic patterns.
As well as the obvious triads up (as above), you can try one up one down (CEG AFD EBD CAF etc) - that way you get voice-leading between arps. In reverse (from the top down) that could be GEC BDF ECA GBD etc). But you can of course start anywhere in the scale.
And you can go for 7ths (arguably more useful for jazz than triads):CEGB CAFD EGBD ECAF etc.

Running through chords in a progression (ie of a song), I'm not sure how adaptable the melodic pattern idea is, but there are many good ways of applying arps - alternate up-down being a good one, because of the voice-leading it teaches you: always lead from the end of one arp to the nearest note in the next arp - and then run the arp in the opposite direction to the previous one, so you don't move too far away on the neck.
Again, don't always start from the chord root! 3rds and 7ths are good starting points for arp exercises. When you lead from one chord to the next, the nearest note might be 2 or even 3 choices, so there's plenty of variety available, even just for this alternate up-down idea.

Take this for the Autumn Leaves sequence (just one arp per chord to keep it simple):

Dm7          G7        Cmaj7     Fmaj7     Bmb75     E7b9      Am
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-10-----------------8--8------------------------------------6--5---------------------
----10---------7-10------9------------9-10-10-7-----------7------5-----------------
-------12-10-9-------------10-9--7-10-----------9-7--6-9-----------7-6--7-----------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  A F  D  C  B D F  G  G E C  B  A C  E F   F D B A  G# B D F  E C A G# A
  5 3  R  7>>3 5 7  R  5 3 R  7>>3 5  7 R   5 3 R 7>>3  5 7 b9 5 3 R 7  R
 

">>" shows guide tone moves. Other changes are from root to 5th - which is always the same note (at least here) but you can make that more interesting by using a 9th in place of the root as I have on the E7b9 chord (making that a G#dim7 arp).
You could work out an alternative where 3rds lead to 7ths, and 5ths to roots. (I've just done it, and it sounds better than the above example. 5ths lead to roots better than vice versa.)


IOW, the idea of melodic patterns is to cement your knowledge of scale patterns and note positions - you can only play them properly and smoothly when your fingers thoroughly know their places. And also to inspire little melodic ideas when it comes to improv. (Those ideas might apply on any chord harmonized from that scale.)
The idea of arpeggio drills (at least their best application) is to rehearse the chord progressions of songs you plan to improvise on, by checking you know all the places on the neck you can find the arpeggios of each chord.

[bobsguitars09]

Thank you! this really is the best forum ever.

[bobsguitars09]

as far as what fingers you should use. would anyone be against using the same fingers you use to play the scale shapes? for consistency? or? some of the 7ths would be awkward to finger the same way you would a scale shape but.?

[bako]

I use 2 basic approaches.

One is staying within the confines a scale fingering as you mentioned.

The other is consistently using the same string group for the interval and shadowing a scale fingering.

Ex. 7ths in G (based on 3 notes per string fingering)

E&D------------A&G----------D&B-------------G&E
GF#-AG-BA // CB-DC-ED // F#E-GF#-AG // BA-CB-DC //