Autumn Leaves - bars 5-7

[swansd]

Hi all, I am interested in how people approach bars 5-7. On my sheet the chords are:

F#m7 b5 . . . . B7 b9 . . . . Em

I usually play the locrian mode over half diminished chords, but this looks like it might be an Em II V I. Should I play the Em melodic minor scale?

Thanks

[ksjazzguitar]

They are just a iim7b5-V7-i in Em.

The most straight forward way is just to think in Em and inflect the D up to D# over the B7. Target chord tones and resolve guide tones. There are more complicated choices, but this is the basics. Playing Em over the F#m7b5 is the same notes as playing F# Locrian.

I'm not a big fan of fitting a different scale over every chord - it's just too much thinking and gains nothing extra. You'll find many that disagree.

Peace,
Kevin

[max_power]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

I'm not a big fan of fitting a different scale over every chord - it's just too much thinking and gains nothing extra.

I agree with Kevin, you'll drive yourself insane if you try to play a different scale over every chord. If you're going to think in scales, the simplest way would be to use E harmonic minor. That, combined with intelligent use of guide tones.

[Drumbler]

Em and then pretend you didn't hear the D#.

What? What was that?

I might go with an arpeggio over the Fm7b5.

[Tom Karol]

I agree with Kevin and Max. E harmonic minor, pure and simple. Stomp on the C (resolve it down to B) and the D# (resolve it up to E)!

[Gramps]

That minor ii,V,i doesn't throw me as much as the decending part at the end of the B section. Those are the changes that make me work.

Basicly I see this song as a Maj ii,V,I and a Minor ii(b5),V,i and the decending changes at the end of the B section. Fun to play.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Em and then pretend you didn't hear the D#.

What? What was that?

Dude, that's awesome.

[ksjazzguitar]

Just to be clear, for those that keep talking about the E Harm minor, that is only over the B7. It could be used over the F#m7b5 too, but it is outside, It sounds strange over the Em.

And just for clarification, this is not a change of scale. The Em has different inflections, the Harmonic and Melodic. Switching from the Natural to the Harmonic inflection is still the same scale. This notion that they are different scales is a fairly recent think in the history of music theory. Perhaps it makes sense in our "get a whole bunch of scales and sub them all over the place" approach, but in a simple thing like this, it makes sense to remember that it is really all one scale.

Peace.
Kevin

[wizard3739]

I agree with Kevin and Tom on this one, harmonic minor sounds good to me.
"I'm not a big fan of fitting a different scale over every chord - it's just too much thinking and gains nothing extra".
+1, Kevin, This thought is much like the way I would approach the tune. I also think playing this tune with a Latin flavor in E minor (Harmonic , Melodic, Natural etc....) would give it a nice and different sound for a dinner hour gig. However, I would probably be most comfortable relying more on my ear to get me through the tune.

wiz

[Drumbler]

What I do is really think about the arpeggios.

They are all right there. Rather than think scale I do that. To me it's is simpler.

For example you have the F#mb5 arp root at the A string 9th fret.

On top of that is the root for the B7 and on top of that is the E.

So you have it all right there.

[JonR]

I agree generally with harmonic minor as the simplest scale choice in a minor ii-V (it will fit the ii as well as the V).

But it's worth pointing out in this case that the melody uses melodic minor. Doesnt mean a solo has to follow suit, but referring to the melody is a common device in solos - which should arguably develop from the melody in any case.

IMO it's a big mistake to just look at chords and ignore the melody - as big a mistake as to sign yourself up fully for the chord-scale-theory cult. (Where the bible says: "locrian natural 2 - altered - melodic minor" on a minor key ii-V-i.)

If and when harmonic minor (or melodic minor) doesn't quite hit the spot - that's when to look further afield: which begins with altering the B7 in some way: b5 or #5, b9 or #9. (Of course this is going beyond the melody.)
Look at how those notes lead neatly into notes on the Em chord (or to extensions like the 6 or 9). It's still working from the chord, including whatever you do to the chord to make the slide into Em more interesting. No need to think about scales at all - other than the diatonic minor key scale. It's all about alterations to that scale to provide extra tensions and (therefore) more interesting resolutions.

[jayx123]

Yeah harmonic minor fits nicely

[Sailor]

Doesn't E Blues fit over this part as well??

Sailor

[jonasfixe]

This is the basic minor cadence: play locrian on the ii (m7b5), Play Mixolydian b6 (b9) on the V, Play natural minor or dorian on the i.

Of course you can use only one scale for all, if you want to be lazy and sound pop-soft-pseudo jazzy, but I think that you will end up being bored and miss the point.

What is important is to play the 3rd on the V chord, which means to play the D# that resolves to E.


Joao

[MatsonJazz94]

play what sounds good

[JonR]

Originally Posted by MatsonJazz94

play what sounds good

You rebel!
Now you've given away The Secret, we will have to kill you...

[pierre richard]

play what sounds good...what else can you say..

I use F#dim7( 4 beats)....B13( 2 beats)...B9( 2 beats)....in these bars...and Em9 at the end...

time on the instrument...pierre

[MatsonJazz94]

haha as much as we try to boil down the theory, it's easy to forget about why we play jazz in the first place. To improvise music from our soul... much easier said than done. I'd agree with everything that has been said so far about the theory part of it. Chord tones, 7-3 resolution, harmonic minor, F# Locrian natural 2(or sharp 2 depending on your religious affiliations) into B superlocrian into E natural or harmonic or melodic minor, any substitution type lines (tri-tone... backdoor... minor 3rd..etc...) basically the way I like to think about it is to use any one of these concepts at any given time to create a line that sounds right. Does that make sense? With the theory in mind and the ear in charge, let music happen how you hear it.Don't feel like it has to be exactly how the theory book says it. Again, it's all much easier said than done.
- Aaron