Why use D Dorian and G Mixolydian over Cmaj

[Electra11]

To improvise over the 2-5-1-6 in the Key of Cmaj7, I was told to use D Dorian and G Mixolydian. This is exactly C Maj scale! So I though might as well be told to use E Phrygian or F Lydian? What's the different! Thankyou so much for your time.

[mr. beaumont]

Who told you that?

Man, it irritates me the way some folks teach jazz.

Play some arpeggios and connect chord tones with chromatics...overintellectualizing a major ii V I is the kind of crap that scares people off of jazz.

[JakeAcci]

I agree with Mr. B.

[AmundLauritzen]

You're damn right they're all C major!
The only point of practicing modes in a non-modal context like a functional cadence(II-V-I in this case) is to be aware of the chord tones.

It's still cumbersome.
One way to go about it is to isolate each chord for practice. Make a Dm7 vamps and practice improvising with D dorian emphasizing the chord tones(D,F,A,C). Then make a vamp for G7 and practice using G mixolydian where you improvise emphasizing the chord tones(G,B,D,F). Then Cmaj7 vamp where you use C Ionian emphasizing the chord tones(C,E,G,B).

A MUCH quicker way to achieve the same result is to visualize the C major scale through the whole progression, but to land on the chord tones for the current chord. This will basically achieve the same result with less work and headache. You can work systematically creating lines emphasizing the roots of each chord, then work with thirds, fifths and all the way up to the 13th.
If you do this, then you'd want to take care when you're working with the 11th on the Cmaj7 and raise it a half step to F#. You also have the same option on the G7, using C# instead of C.

The way I go about it is that I use the key center as my main area. I've worked with these targeting exercises, embellishments etcetra to add to the tonal center. Then I have altered, pentatonic and diminished scales for the V7 chord. That's just 4 scales to learn, and it will give you endless opportunities.

When I want the melodic minor sound for the Dm7, I don't think of melodic minor as a separate scale, but rather include the #7 interval in my line.
Jazz players often play both the m7th and the maj7th of a Dm7 chord in a line, so viewing Dorian and Melodic Minor as two different scales is just silly in my opinion.
Pat Martino is the perfect example. He'll play a line with both intervals in them. One egghead mights say "He's thinking melodic minor with a passing tone", while another egghead protests saying "That's clearly dorian with a passing tone". Fact is, both are right.
I like to condense all the minor sounds into one entity. Natural, Melodic and Harmonic Minor are not three scales to me, but one. It's all about leaving out or adding notes.

This turned out to be a long post, but it gets my point across.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by Electra11

To improvise over the 2-5-1-6 in the Key of Cmaj7, I was told to use D Dorian and G Mixolydian. This is exactly C Maj scale! So I though might as well be told to use E Phrygian or F Lydian? What's the different! Thankyou so much for your time.

I know my modes. Nothing makes me happier after hearing all this crap is having studied under old jazz guys who could play. Even when they played modal i.e. Dorian other devices were used for improvisations.

On a bass forum I read, there is a college professor (great player) who screamed at a high level jazz player for playing a major 7th as a passing tone over a dominant chord. This is done all the time. That is an example of how modal theory is screwing up jazz.

Modal playing is static. Keeping track of modes while soloing through changes is pointless.

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by Billnc

On a bass forum I read, there is a college professor (great player) who screamed at a high level jazz player for playing a major 7th as a passing tone over a dominant chord. This is done all the time. That is an example of how modal theory is screwing up jazz.

Modal playing is static. Keeping track of modes while soloing through changes is pointless.

Modal theory screwing up jazz? Somehow I feel like this professor might not be qualified to teach music if they are not aware of a chromatic passing tone.

I cannot agree with your last sentence here, not all modal playing is static, have you ever played "tell me a bedtime story" or "prince of darkness" these are just two examples from the real book that come to mind. I personally think that modes can be very helpful in constructing melodies over changes such as these. Especially melodies which use a lot of 2nds.

I agree that they are cumbersome in a diatonic context and that chord tones should take precedence in most cases, but I do not think that studying, practicing, and applying modes is pointless.

but to the O.P. yeah if your just getting to know Mr. 2-5-1... stick to connecting chord tones and if you must think scales, C major will suffice.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by timscarey

Modal theory screwing up jazz? Somehow I feel like this professor might not be qualified to teach music if they are not aware of a chromatic passing tone.

I cannot agree with your last sentence here, not all modal playing is static, have you ever played "tell me a bedtime story" or "prince of darkness" these are just two examples from the real book that come to mind. I personally think that modes can be very helpful in constructing melodies over changes such as these. Especially melodies which use a lot of 2nds.

I agree that they are cumbersome in a diatonic context and that chord tones should take precedence in most cases, but I do not think that studying, practicing, and applying modes is pointless.

but to the O.P. yeah if your just getting to know Mr. 2-5-1... stick to connecting chord tones and if you must think scales, C major will suffice.

I just looked at Prince of Darkness, this is a context where we do agree.

[mr. beaumont]

I don't think modal theory screwed up jazz at all! It's completely necessary to play some stuff.

I just don't like it when I see stuff as clear and easy as a major ii V I get all convoluted with unecessary thinking. There's not a one size fits all approach for jazz...anybody who tells you so is blowing smoke.

[JakeAcci]

Yes...using modes to teach beginners how to play over ii V I is absolutely insane. I actually spent years thinking that's how you were supposed to do it, and of course quickly got left in the dust with any sort of real jazz changes. Luckily I eventually had a old-school type of teacher that 'showed me the way.' First lesson he said point blank "we will not talk about scales."

Using modes to play over Wayne Shorter tunes is a totally different story, for sure.

Hah, I mean, can you image playing rhythm changes at even a moderately quick tempo and thinking of a different chord scale every two beats?

[mr. beaumont]

Although, interestingly enough, "Rhythm Changes" at a brisk tempo is one of the spots where I start to abandon a "hit all the changes" concept and start to think more "key, not chord." I sort of work from major ideas, to blues ideas, to nailing the turnaround...and then of course I really try to hit all the changes on the bridge...

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Although, interestingly enough, "Rhythm Changes" at a brisk tempo is one of the spots where I start to abandon a "hit all the changes" concept and start to think more "key, not chord." I sort of work from major ideas, to blues ideas, to nailing the turnaround...and then of course I really try to hit all the changes on the bridge...

The first chord of every measure would go like this BbM7 Cmi7 Dmi7 Cmi7 for the first four measures. This is a standard substitution for a straight BbM7 isn't it? If a straight Gmi line works for Martino well....

[mr. beaumont]

You'd play those four chords in the two beats of the I? Or are you getting rid of the vi/VI?

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

You'd play those four chords in the two beats of the I? Or are you getting rid of the vi/VI?

Just a theoretical analysis of the first four measures
Bb G7 I Cm7 F7 I Dm7 G7 I Cm F7 I

If you see it as

Bb I Cm7 I Dm7 I Cm7 I

this progression is a subsitution progression for Bb for four measures

So 'staying in key' isn't as much cheating in this circumstance as could be in other chord sequences. This is also why so many devices sound cool over these changes (and sticking with them sounds corny sometimes)


Comping I'd stay pretty much as written or the standard stuff we do.

Over analyzing I know but I don't spend too much of my day doing that.

[jasonc]

I always condense Rhythm Changes to alternating measures of I and V for the first four bars then the turnaround.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

:shakesfist: Berkeley!

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Billnc

Just a theoretical analysis of the first four measures
Bb G7 I Cm7 F7 I Dm7 G7 I Cm F7 I

If you see it as

Bb I Cm7 I Dm7 I Cm7 I

this progression is a subsitution progression for Bb for four measures

So 'staying in key' isn't as much cheating in this circumstance as could be in other chord sequences. This is also why so many devices sound cool over these changes (and sticking with them sounds corny sometimes)


Comping I'd stay pretty much as written or the standard stuff we do.

Over analyzing I know but I don't spend too much of my day doing that.

Ah, now I gotcha.

Mind you, I don't think of playing "key, not chord" as cheating.

[Kman]

Originally Posted by Electra11

To improvise over the 2-5-1-6 in the Key of Cmaj7, I was told to use D Dorian and G Mixolydian. This is exactly C Maj scale! So I though might as well be told to use E Phrygian or F Lydian? What's the different! Thankyou so much for your time.

Yes, D Dorian and G mixolydian have the same notes as C major, but pay attention to what notes you are emphasizing on each chord, namely on beats 1 & 3.

[JakeAcci]

Well, keep in mind I didn't say "play every change," I was basically saying "don't think of a chord scale for every change" - it would be insane, or at least a ridiculous first approach when learning to play over it.

[mr. beaumont]

Agreed.

[brwnhornet59]

Great Thread!! Nothing like striking a nerve to get some passion flowing!

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

:shakesfist: Berkeley!

What do those hippies in California have to do with that school down the street from me?

[augusjazz]

Originally Posted by Electra11

To improvise over the 2-5-1-6 in the Key of Cmaj7, I was told to use D Dorian and G Mixolydian. This is exactly C Maj scale! So I though might as well be told to use E Phrygian or F Lydian? What's the different! Thankyou so much for your time.

I agree that is ridiculous from the theoretical / musical, but it is often useful to play the guitar because that way you explore different areas of the pitch that if the thought of not use the home key.
An example is playing the A minor pentatonic over the chord CMAJ (which is the same as C major pentatonic) or play G Maj on C (which is the same as using C Lydian).
They are just easy ways to resolve issues and sectors fingering of the guitar, harmonics are not replacements or manners, but a "help" to expand the resources from the point of view of the guitar with his positions and Dogit (think of it this way in other instrument itself is completely absurd).
It's like saying that always uses the chromatic scale with caution to see how we use the five notes that do not match the tonal center.

[Electra11]

Thanks for the post I learned a lot

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

You're damn right they're all C major!
The only point of practicing modes in a non-modal context like a functional cadence(II-V-I in this case) is to be aware of the chord tones.

It's still cumbersome.
One way to go about it is to isolate each chord for practice. Make a Dm7 vamps and practice improvising with D dorian emphasizing the chord tones(D,F,A,C). Then make a vamp for G7 and practice using G mixolydian where you improvise emphasizing the chord tones(G,B,D,F). Then Cmaj7 vamp where you use C Ionian emphasizing the chord tones(C,E,G,B).

A MUCH quicker way to achieve the same result is to visualize the C major scale through the whole progression, but to land on the chord tones for the current chord. This will basically achieve the same result with less work and headache. You can work systematically creating lines emphasizing the roots of each chord, then work with thirds, fifths and all the way up to the 13th.
If you do this, then you'd want to take care when you're working with the 11th on the Cmaj7 and raise it a half step to F#. You also have the same option on the G7, using C# instead of C.

The way I go about it is that I use the key center as my main area. I've worked with these targeting exercises, embellishments etcetra to add to the tonal center. Then I have altered, pentatonic and diminished scales for the V7 chord. That's just 4 scales to learn, and it will give you endless opportunities.

When I want the melodic minor sound for the Dm7, I don't think of melodic minor as a separate scale, but rather include the #7 interval in my line.
Jazz players often play both the m7th and the maj7th of a Dm7 chord in a line, so viewing Dorian and Melodic Minor as two different scales is just silly in my opinion.
Pat Martino is the perfect example. He'll play a line with both intervals in them. One egghead mights say "He's thinking melodic minor with a passing tone", while another egghead protests saying "That's clearly dorian with a passing tone". Fact is, both are right.
I like to condense all the minor sounds into one entity. Natural, Melodic and Harmonic Minor are not three scales to me, but one. It's all about leaving out or adding notes.

This turned out to be a long post, but it gets my point across.

[Electra11]

Originally Posted by Kman

Yes, D Dorian and G mixolydian have the same notes as C major, but pay attention to what notes you are emphasizing on each chord, namely on beats 1 & 3.

I got your point thanks so much

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Yes...using modes to teach beginners how to play over ii V I is absolutely insane. I actually spent years thinking that's how you were supposed to do it, and of course quickly got left in the dust with any sort of real jazz changes.

Hey Jake (and others), thanks for your posts. Help me check my thinking - I want to be sure I'm not wasting time or if there is a more appropriate approach to improv for my current skill level (novice).

Basically, I've been spending the last couple months dialing in my arps and modes. I use iReal b to choose a tune (autumn leaves, equinox, or whatever), set a comfortable tempo, pick a key, and then try to improv over it, mixing in arps and modes. Sounds pretty "scaly" right now, but its starting to sound more and more interesting as I get more comfortable with positions and which notes to emphasize.

Anyway, is there a better approach? Should I set this aside and just focus on identifying and hitting the chord tones?

Edit to add: aren't the arps made up of the chord tones? So...should I just stay on arps and get the positions wired?

Thanks for any input.

[JakeAcci]

The advice I was given - learn to play over progressions using only chord tones (1, 3, 5, 7) before anything else. Learn melodies from standards and learn to improvise and manipulate those melodies. Bebop heads, Charlie Parker specifically, provide great motivic material if you're just getting started with jazz.

[Kman]

Consonance/dissonance/resolution are all right there in the C major scale, if you use the important tones at the right time.

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

The advice I was given - learn to play over progressions using only chord tones (1, 3, 5, 7) before anything else. Learn melodies from standards and learn to improvise and manipulate those melodies. Bebop heads, Charlie Parker specifically, provide great motivic material if you're just getting started with jazz.

Thanks Jake - that makes good sense. Sounds like I may have gotten ahead of myself. At least I'll have a good head start when it's time to for modes.

That said, at what point do you start using modes (major and mel. minor)? Is it something you "graduate" to or is really more dependent on the tune and the sound the group is trying to create?

Sorry in advance to the OP if this is turning into a Grade-A thread-jack.

[mr. beaumont]

The easy answer is that it becomes time for modes when you want to play music that requires them.

For some folks, that might be right off the bat, as they hear say, "Maiden Voyage" and are hooked on that sound...others who prefer bop and swing idioms might never need them...

I think it's perfectly fine to get your feet wet a bit as soon as you encounter some music that requires them...my problem isn't so much with beginners using/learning modes, it's when they try to force them to fit on everything...it's a recipe for frustration.

I do think that bop, despite a lot of chord changes and some challenging tempos, is a lot more straightforward, and a good place for the jazzer to start out...I like the idea of making a student start to visualize using chord tones because it immediatedly forces them out of their box...very few people pick up a guitar and decide to play jazz the same day...more likely the've played for years in rock or some other type of genre, and now the rules they know don't work...so I like to get the player away from that old standby, the pentatonic, right away...

Pentatonics have their place in jazz, but to me, it's a much more advanced concept.

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

very few people pick up a guitar and decide to play jazz the same day...more likely the've played for years in rock or some other type of genre, and now the rules they know don't work...so I like to get the player away from that old standby, the pentatonic, right away...

Yep - that's me.

I'm pretty good on which mode to play over which chords, but grabbing them quickly over multiple changes...um...major lag leading to a train/brain wreck.

I think I need to do some more studying and listening to get a better grasp of what to use when. I'm not very good on decerning styles and what constructs make them sound unique. Autumn Leaves for example - should I be sticking to chord tones, playing modes over the changes...major or minor modes? What's safest?

So much to learn...good thing I'm digging it!