Do you disregard the ii in a ii V7 (I) ?

[aniss1001]

I saw an instructional video with joe pass where he talks a lot about simplyfying your thinking. For instance he says that whenever he sees a ii V he goes right for the dominant and completely disregards the ii. Just wondering if any of you do the same?

To me it makes a lot of sense to do it if it's a fast tune but otherwise not.. I dunno..

In general I like simplying but I think he overdoes it a bit. For example he emphasizes that to him there are only 3 kinds of chords. Major, minor and dominant (this includes augmented and diminshed chords). Later on he does clearly diferentiate between altered and non-altered chords though. And even seems to divide the altered chords in two. That is for example A7(b9/13) and A7(#5/b9). I'd say those derived from respectively the diminished and the altered scale, but that is (the scale bit) of course againt the thinking of Joe (and many others)

[Sandor]

The ii and V chord come from the same scale, so no matter what you're thinking, you are gonna play from the same group of notes. Some people like to think dominant, some like to think minor. Of course, then Joe would go and add tons of passing notes and other alterations based on what he "heard".

Joe actually does discuss altered and diminished scales in his books.

He seperates non alt and alt in the video for educational example purposes, when he actually played he would do whatever the hell he wanted if it sounded good to him(regardless if the chord was altered or not).

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by Sandor

The ii and V chord come from the same scale, so no matter what you're thinking, you are gonna play from the same group of notes.

Yes that I'm aware of.. But what if we're not talking a "straight" ii V but for example:

Dm7b5-G7Alt-CM7, Dm9-Db9-CM7, D7Alt-G7(13/b9)-CM7, etc..

That is I-V's that can`t be fitted into one scale / sound...

[Sandor]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Yes that I'm aware of.. But what if we're not talking a "straight" ii V but for example:

Dm7b5-G7Alt-CM7, Dm9-Db9-CM7, D7Alt-G7(13/b9)-CM7, etc..

That is I-V's that can`t be fitted into one scale / sound...

Hey! you didn't say anything about those crazy changes at first!

Well, it really depends on the situation. Joe hardly(if ever) played in groups that had strict changes worked out like that. That second example is a tritone sub, Most likely it would be up to whomever was comping to decide to do that, and then Joe would hear it and change his line accordingly. It would be instantaneous, he wouldn't be like "Oh I see what he did there, I better play Db such and such scale".
Same for the other examples, it would depend on what the person comping plays. No jazz musicians of Joe's caliber will just play the changes the way someone writes them down, unless its a strict big band arrangement or something.
I think the thing about the ii and V being the same is mainly for more plain examples of ii V's though.

[AmundLauritzen]

Put the V in the bass of a II chord and it gives you a V7sus.
Put the II in the bass of the V chord and it gives you a IIm6 with an eleventh in it.
These roman numerals are of course related to the key center. Key of C example: Dm7/G and G7/D.

So you can basically interchange the II and V. You can think II, II, I or V,V,I.

The II with a V pedal is often used as an intro as well, alternating between the sus(related to V) sound and the un-sussed sound.

Excuse the horrible language. I'm Norwegian :P

[Kman]

For me it depends on the tempo of the tune. The faster the tempo the more I will ignore the II. If both chords are in one measure I will often ignore the II no matter what tempo.

[jayx123]

Originally Posted by Kman

For me it depends on the tempo of the tune. The faster the tempo the more I will ignore the II. If both chords are in one measure I will often ignore the II no matter what tempo.

This is exactly how I go about it

[Drumbler]

Pass sees the Dominant.

Pat Martino sees the minor.

Someone else just sees the key.

[Nuff Said]

Listen and respond, ask, What does the music want?

Does what you're playing fit with the music being played?

[Dazz]

Originally Posted by jayx123

This is exactly how I go about it

That comment from kman and your reply to agree are one of the more encouraging and useful things I have read for a while. I thought I was just being lazy doing that or just not good enough to follow the chords when they are that closely packed. I often do both as ii rather than V out of habit (I think Wes did that too) but you get more resolution from playing them as the V.

[JonnyPac]

My 2 cents. Harmonic rhythm and the alterations make a difference.

1. You can generalize the harmony as "dominant" and treat the two chords as one ignoring any discrepancies. This is good if the tune is burning fast and the ii V7 is in one bar, etc.

2. If both chords really are diatonic (totally unaltered), you can generalize the harmony within the key and play with one scale, though outlining the hierarchy of the two individual chords is often preferable. Attending to the guide tones is a good idea instead of noodling in one key, IMHO.

3. You can use mental tips like thinking of Dm9 G13b9 is a "unit", but you will not hit the Ab until the later part of the bar since it fits the G better than the Dm, etc. If there is enough time (a bar per chord or slow tempo) you should outline the guide tones and alterations in a more conscious way. Practicing the shiz out of every ii V7 (with all applicable qualities and tritone subs) combos in all major and minor keys makes seeing them as units with two parts. In the end you can see a ii-V7 or ii-V7-I as single units, but not play just one scale (or arp/lick/outline/hierarchy whatever you use) through it. Think of a musical sentence.

[Nuff Said]

Non-resolving 2-5s, I use Lydian Dominant. This is also from early Emily Remler VHS videos I remember watch as a younger man.

I also like to use the Wes' usage of the 2 only and Joe Pass' usage of the 5 only.

Nuff

[JonnyPac]

You can also make the changes elastic. Give each chord something other than 2 or 4 beats. Split it with 5 beats of ii and 3 beats of V7 for a delayed resolution, or the inverse for an anticipation, etc. That's fun- and very common in all jazz styles.

[Diederikeggenkamp]

I have another weird approach to this. With the "regular" ii-V in mind. In a descending (often vertical) line I look at it as a dominant, often using bebop scales, parker style. If I i'm playing ascending (often horizontal, arrpegiated). I tend to look at the ii or one of it's inversions. Just goes to show there's a way for everyone. A teacher of mine once told me to look at it like this when improvising, for better voiceleading:

Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7
=
F6 - Fdim - Em7 (flat 9 sound)
or
F6 - Fm7b5- Em7 (Altered sound)
or
F6 - Bm7b5 - Em7 (natural major sound)

etc. etc.

Cheers

[MeneerJelle]

Originally Posted by Diederikeggenkamp

A teacher of mine once told me to look at it like this when improvising, for better voiceleading:

Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7
=
F6 - Fdim - Em7 (flat 9 sound)
or
F6 - Fm7b5- Em7 (Altered sound)
or
F6 - Bm7b5 - Em7 (natural major sound)

etc. etc.

Cheers

Interesting, I get the F6, Em7 and Bm7b5, but how do you explain the Fdim and Fm7b5? Why does that improve voice leading in your solo?

[AmundLauritzen]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

You can also make the changes elastic. Give each chord something other than 2 or 4 beats. Split it with 5 beats of ii and 3 beats of V7 for a delayed resolution, or the inverse for an anticipation, etc. That's fun- and very common in all jazz styles.

Excellent point! Delaying the resolution can be very effective. It can make common alterations sound much more effective, because they create even more tension on the one-chord and even greater relief once they resolve at that point.

Joe Pass said you could always play V-I on the one-chord. It works even on a static Imaj vamp.

I use it all the time. Once a player becomes aware of this concept, it will free up his playing from knee-jerk altered on the V chord to being able to hear that tension in a more general sense.

[Diederikeggenkamp]

Well voice leading was a part of it. Especially the Fdim7. F6 - Fdim to Em7 (or C/E) is a nice voiceleading when you play it harmonically, for example:

e x x x
b 10 9 8
g 7 7 7
d 10 9 9
a 8 8 7
E x x x

So if you outline these changes, it will you give you a good frame of reference for voiceleads through your lines. The Fm7b5 is indeed not so much voiceleading as it is a way to alter the Dominant. Didn't feel like being specific.

Cheers

[MeneerJelle]

Nice! But I still don't really get how you can explain the Fm7b5 or the Fdim substituting the G7. Do they have something in common?

[Diederikeggenkamp]

Originally Posted by MeneerJelle

Nice! But I still don't really get how you can explain the Fm7b5 or the Fdim substituting the G7. Do they have something in common?

Ah that's what you're driving at.

Wel Fdim7 is essentially an inversion of Abdim7. So it's the upperstructure of G7b9

G7b9 = G B D F Ab
Abdim7 = Ab B D F

So Abdim is G7b9 without the root, See?

Now for the Fm7b5. This is an inversion for Abm6.

By superimposing a m6 chord (essentially using the melodic minor scale of that chord) on a dominant one half-step up, you create altered dominant sounds. This is because the altered scale is a mode (7th mode) of melodic minor.

So bij using Abm6 on G7, you get:

G7: G B D F
Abm6: Ab B Eb F

G7b9b13 G Ab B D Eb F

it won't surprise you that G7b13 (or #5 if you will), is also the V of Cm (melodic). So by using certain chords from the melodic minor scale (or any minor scale for that matter) you can create new (altered) sounds.

Sorry if I'm giving to much information, but I figured it would save us from sending to much off topic messages back and forth!

Diederik

[MeneerJelle]

Yeah of course! Great! Thanks

[AmundLauritzen]

Originally Posted by Diederikeggenkamp

Ah that's what you're driving at.

Wel Fdim7 is essentially an inversion of Abdim7. So it's the upperstructure of G7b9

G7b9 = G B D F Ab
Abdim7 = Ab B D F

So Abdim is G7b9 without the root, See?

Now for the Fm7b5. This is an inversion for Abm6.

By superimposing a m6 chord (essentially using the melodic minor scale of that chord) on a dominant one half-step up, you create altered dominant sounds. This is because the altered scale is a mode (7th mode) of melodic minor.

So bij using Abm6 on G7, you get:

G7: G B D F
Abm6: Ab B Eb F

G7b9b13 G Ab B D Eb F

it won't surprise you that G7b13 (or #5 if you will), is also the V of Cm (melodic). So by using certain chords from the melodic minor scale (or any minor scale for that matter) you can create new (altered) sounds.

Sorry if I'm giving to much information, but I figured it would save us from sending to much off topic messages back and forth!

Diederik

Great post!
I think players unfamiliar with the diminished family will greatly benefit from discovering it. It can be discovered through the diminished scale which has several tonics. That again can unlock the diminished upper structures of altered dominant chords. When it all comes together, great things will happen.
The diminished scale not only unlocks that, but also the major and minor triads over a bass note to create altered chords.

The key is in the minor third symmetry of the diminished chord. Taking any diminished chord and putting a bass note a half step below its tonic will create a dominant 7b9 chord.

[princeplanet]

Yeah, the Fm7b5 gives you the b9 an the #5 over G dom. It's cool.

More and more I'm trying to see things as either Tonic, Anti-Tonic and "Ambi" Tonic (both). For a while there I was trying to cheat by coming up with a lot of Ambi Tonic ideas - things like embellished 13 arps or altered chromatic lines that work over anything. Although these are cool to get you out of a tight spot, relying on them heavily can leave the playing sounding undefined. It's a cliche, I know, but it seems the secret is to find a balance between overstating and understating the harmony.

Take away the chords from a good solo, and you still feel the progression. But do the same for a solo that doesn't hit too many guide tones and you either have gibberish, or, a masterpiece! I realize now that the master soloists first learned to outline properly, then gradually loosened the outlining to make things interesting. The progression seems to be start out boring and obvious and work your way to genius. You can't get to genius from gibberish...

When I first heard Dolphy as a youngster, it sounded like gibberish. But now I know what real gibberish sounds like...

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

When I first heard Dolphy as a youngster, it sounded like gibberish. But now I know what real gibberish sounds like...

So true. I really dig Dolphy as "out" as he went. Genius.

[Diederikeggenkamp]

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

Great post!
I think players unfamiliar with the diminished family will greatly benefit from discovering it. It can be discovered through the diminished scale which has several tonics. That again can unlock the diminished upper structures of altered dominant chords. When it all comes together, great things will happen.
The diminished scale not only unlocks that, but also the major and minor triads over a bass note to create altered chords.

The key is in the minor third symmetry of the diminished chord. Taking any diminished chord and putting a bass note a half step below its tonic will create a dominant 7b9 chord.

Thanks! But I want to elaborate a bit on that.

What you call the diminished scale (I'm assuming you mean octatonic. whole-half or half-whole) is pretty much a synthetical scale, like the whole-tone scale. These are scales with no tonal context or root. Because of this, they (especially the octatonic) will sound generic and perhaps a bit primitive if overused.

There is one case however, in which the octatonic scale is of specific importance. That's with the 13b9 chord. If you wanna play that, you'll have to use it.

But for true diminished harmony, I use the harmonic minor or harmonic major scale.

I look at the before mentioned Fdim7 as an inverted 7th degree (Abdim7/F) of A harmonic minor. Just like I use the Fm7b5 as the 6th degree from the Ab MELODIC minor scale.

This all sounds a little complicated and too much thinking to be usefull, and that's true! But I wanted to stress the point that the diminished chords don't come from the octatonic scale, just like the dominant chords in the octatonic scale don't come from it.

You either have a #vi-dim or a vii-dim, both with their corresponding scales. One functioning as a Subdominant, the other a Dominant.

for instance (examples in C):

Em7 - Ebdim7 | Dm7 would utilise C-melodic minor. Because the Ebdim7 is an inversion of F#dim7. Which comes from a raised 4th degree in the corresponding minor scale. C-melodic minor with a #11 is essentially G harmonic major.

Dm7 - D#dim7 | Em7 would use E harmonic minor. Cause the D#dim7 acts as a dominant for Em and is found naturally on it's 7th degree.

If you want to get the most logical and musical result out of your diminished scales, you'll have to go deep and look for the origin in the diminished chords. Perhaps even when they're disguised as Dominant 7th chords, like the 7b9!

Diederik

[MeneerJelle]

@Diederik:
Could you perhaps dig a little deeper on that CMM over the Em7-Ebdim-Dm7 progression. I'd initially think same way as you, where Ebdim would be a rootless B7b9. Therefore, I would play E harmonic minor. Even if I related it to a raised fourth degree of C msjor, I'm still clueless about that C melodic minor. Could you help me out again? Haha.

[brwnhornet59]

I am all about treating ii V's as interchangeable with the minor 6 just being a rootless dom. Add the b7 and you have the dom sus. No need to look at them separately in this context. How you approach them, as major or minor, is a personal choice.

I also am all about rootless Dom 7b9 usage more than true dim. As was stated earlier harmonic minor or major are fine for dim, I might add, I enjoy the 5th mode of harmonic major against a domb9 with an unaltered 5th. Also the 2nd mode of mm works as will the 6th mode and of course the altered scale. It all depends on what you are looking for.

Diederik has some very insightful ideas as does Jonny and Amund. Great topic guys! Lets keep it coming.

[Kman]

Originally Posted by MeneerJelle

Nice! But I still don't really get how you can explain the Fm7b5 or the Fdim substituting the G7. Do they have something in common?

That dimished scale comes in handy at faster tempos (Fdim in the key of C) It lies great on the fingerboard. It's often just a half step away.

[Diederikeggenkamp]

Originally Posted by MeneerJelle

@Diederik:
Could you perhaps dig a little deeper on that CMM over the Em7-Ebdim-Dm7 progression. I'd initially think same way as you, where Ebdim would be a rootless B7b9. Therefore, I would play E harmonic minor. Even if I related it to a raised fourth degree of C msjor, I'm still clueless about that C melodic minor. Could you help me out again? Haha.

Sure meneerJelle,

it's based on the given fact that you have subdominant diminished chords and dominant diminished chords. Found on the seventh degree of the harmonic minor scale and the raised 4th (#iv) degree of the melodic minor scale.

This last concept is what we're dealing with. The idea is that at some point in old music (not sure which era) composers started to add a leading tone to the 4th degree of the scales. In major this would create a half-diminished chord (F#m7b5 in C) and in the minor it create a diminished chord (F#dim7 in Cmm). These have both created cadences of movement that are somewhat identical and more powerful than their original versions. Ah nice example of what I mean by identical can be found in the standard Alone Together (key of D minor):

In bar 9 of this song you often see either Abdim7 or Bm7b5 - E7b9 as a movement. They are interchangeable and provide different color mostly because of the root movement. Abdim7 moves to Gm7, thus functioning the same as the previously seen Ebdim7 to Dm7. It eventually resolves to the one chord Fmaj7, pararell to D minor.

Now pay attention cause this is the clue.

We have either

Abdim7 - Gm7 C7 - Fmaj7
or
Bm7b5 E7b9 - Gm7 C7 -Fmaj7

Abdim7 is found as Bdim7 on the #iv degree of F melodic minor
Bm7b5 (here with it's five attached for harmonic purposes) is the #iv of F major.

And check it out. That Same Abdim7, when you invert it to Fdim7 for a closer look, is the b9 upperstructure of that E7b9 we've used. So we're right back on topic!

Feel free to ask again if I wasn't clear or perhaps too elaborate, I love this kind of stuff.

Diederik

[Diederikeggenkamp]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I am all about treating ii V's as interchangeable with the minor 6 just being a rootless dom. Add the b7 and you have the dom sus. No need to look at them separately in this context. How you approach them, as major or minor, is a personal choice.

I also am all about rootless Dom 7b9 usage more than true dim. As was stated earlier harmonic minor or major are fine for dim, I might add I enjoy the 5th mode of harmonic major against a domb9 with an unaltered 5th. Also the 2nd mode of mm works as will the 6th mode and of course the altered scale. It all depends on what you are looking for.

Diederik has some very insightful ideas as does Jonny and Amund. Great topic guys! Lets keep it coming.

Thanks man! Your point of view is a good one too, the rootless dom7b9 rather than a true dim. I just wrote something for MeneerJelle going into the relation of the 7b9 and it's dim. Out of that, one can draw the conclusion that it's easier to play over a dim as a dominant. Charlie Parker did it that way, but I always like to know the origin behind it!

[Drumbler]

Interesting to contrast this discussion with a recent thread about how Barney Kessel thinks when he plays.

What the greats were thinking?
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/playe...tml#post192943