double harmonic/Hungarian Gypsy minor

[Jazzyteach65]

After listening to Hossein Alizadeh this week, as well as some Arabic Maqaams, I went to my Aebersold "exotic and foreign" scale nonclameture, and looked at what I've been hearing all these years. Although Jamey doesn't get it exactly right, I noticed the lising of the "double harmonic" scale, aka "Persian scale" as well as a maq'aam, ect. I looked at its constructions: Rt, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7 and then realized that if I took the fifth drgree of it, it would yeild what has been called the "Hungarian Gypsy" minor, or the Spanish-tinged "phrygian major nat7, mode four." Forget all of that jargon bs. It is a harmonic minor#4.: Rt, 2, b3, #4, 5, b6, 7

I took the scale to a student today, and comped a vamp from a few of the chords coming out of it (in "f" I played Abmaj#5, to G7b5 repeated then ended with C7 to Db7) BAM! A plethora of ideas came out. I could instantly hear the "scale" work over "Caravan" or "Epistrpohy." Try messing around with this, it sounds pretty exotic!

[Patrick Brown]

And the 5th mode of HM is the Phreygish, flamenco, scale.(heard alot in heavy metal) The only place in the Western lexicon I've heard the Hungarian minor(HM/w #4) used is in a Canadian fiddle tune called Reel Beatrice, in the B part. It had its provenance in Italy. I'm sure it's elsewhere, too,,,,just what I've noticed.
The 5th mode of the Hungarian minor, is, as you say, the 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7, and is called Hijaz in the mid east, IINM, and for sure it is the Thaat Bhairava in North Indian Classical music,,,the scale of the god siva,,and our phrygian is bhairavi, the scale of his wife, Kali. Our major is their Bilawal, and our lydian is their Kalyan. Purya Kalyan is_really_ exotic, being a lydian with a b2.(aka marava) I don't think we can derive it from Western sources,,it's artificial to us, but cool as all get out. Slide from the b2 to the #4 for some spooky stuff.

[Claudi]

Hi!
Just wanted to tell you that exotic scales, some of them, have the same notes as at least 1 of our modes in the pentatonic, diatonic, melodic minor, harmonic minor and harmonic major, or otherwise there is a difference of 1 note, or if you think that the scale differs more than 1 note just move the root to another note in the exotic scale and the intervals will be the same as 1 of our modes or then you'll have to flat or sharp maximum 1 note and sometime 2 notes.
That's what happens with the 23 exotic scales that are in my Dave Celentano's Monster scales and modes book.
Therefore you'll only have to remember where to change the root and what note to sharp or flat. I'll mark them in red.
For example:
Oriental 1 b2 3 4 b5 6 b7: harmonic major mixolydian b2 1 2b 3 4 5 6 b7
Hindustan 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7= exact melodic minor mixolidian b6
Neopolitan major 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 7: jazz minor 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Neopolitan minor 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 7 Diatonic phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Overtone 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7= exact lydian dominant
Egyptian 1 2 4 5 b7. Pentatonic scale. Take the 4rth note of egyptian as the root and you'll only have to think of our 3rd degree as a #3.
Scriabin 1 b2 3 5 6. Pentatonic 1 2 3 5 6
Ritusen 1 2 4 5 6. Pentatonic. Take ritusen 4rth degree as the root and it's exactly our pentatonic scale.
Chinese 1 3 #4 5 7. Pentatonic. Take interval 3 as the root and you'll only have to sharpen the 4rth.
Japanese 1 b2 4 5 b6. Pentatonic. Take the 4rth as the root and you'll only have to flatten the 2nd and/or 6th since you can take the 6th as the blue note if you want.

Well that's been 10 scales. I hope I've helped you

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by Claudi

Hi!
Chinese 1 3 #4 5 7. Pentatonic. Take interval 3 as the root and you'll only have to sharpen the 4rth.

...and sharp the 7th.

[Claudi]

No it's: chinese 1 3 #4 5 7. So take the root on the 3rd interval, flatten the 5th and 1. That comes from our pentatonic.

[Patrick Brown]

Cool Claudi. Thanks much.

[Claudi]

[Jazzyteach65]

The problem I have with naming exotic scales is this: some of them are genralized as being one specific region's scale (Hindustani scale, Arab scale ect) when in fact there are many modes and scales from both northern and southern India (Hindustani) and different Maqams in Arabic music. The thinng about Subcontinental/Indo-Pak-Bengali music is that often the scale changes intervals descending from ascending, kinda like the classical use of the melodic minor. Also, Maqams often contain micro and quartertones, something very difficult to achieve on guitar, unless your luthier has cut the frets in half.

[Patrick Brown]

I'm a big sarod fan,,in fact, I have an old Hemen(1967). I know about those differing scale tones. I have CD's of a number of great players. I think the one I like best is Buddhadev Das Gupta. He's not the greatest virtuoso, but there is a sweetness to his playing that I find just magical.
Yeah, you need to be judicious on your bends.(on guitar)

[Claudi]

Hi, dudes!
Since you like exotic scales here I'm writing the other 13 ones coming from my scale book. Hope that some of 'em pleases you.
Englimatic 1 b2 3 b5 b6 b7 7
Hirajoshi 1 2 b3 5 b6
Kumoi 1 2 b3 5 6
Pelog 1 b2 b3 5 b6
Kokin Joshi 1 b2 4 5 b7
P'yongio 1 2 4 5 6 b7
Iwato 1 b2 4 b5 7
Hungaryan Gipsy 1 2 3 #4 5 b6 b7
Hungarian major 1 b3 3 #4 5 6 b7 or 1 2# 3 #4 5 6 b7
Romanian 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7
Persian 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7
Prometheus 1 2 3 #4 b7
Arabian 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

What I don't know is which ones are applied with modes in their countries, as you were pointing before.
I guess that most of them if they're played in the traditional way they don't play more than 2 modes, as it happened with the classical music centuries ago, to keep the country flavour. Maybe for 2 countries it's the same scale but played in different modes as a matter of identity. Just guessing, uh?

[Claudi]

Sorry, Iwato is 1 b2 4 b5 b7

[Claudi]

Jazzyteach, it seems we've collected 3 hungarian scales: Hungarian gipsy minor, hungarian gipsy (major), and hungarian major (not gipsy, it seems).

[Patrick Brown]

'Cept in India, where it's all over the place under the Sun. Northern India has 10 Thaats(their word for modes built on common and ancient rag(a)s,) and these themselves get altered,(I have a book entitled Ragapedia, and it's just full of different ragas) and Carnatic music in Southern India has all the permutations and combinations of scales possible with a 7 tone against 12 tone per octave available(which tones themselves can be very variable), so that there are 36 modes with a normal 4 and 36 modes with a raised 4. 72 in all. Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dah Ni Sa is their solfege(Northern India here),,Sa(tonic) never flat or sharps, and Pa, the 5th never does either, but the others are quite movable.(I think that holds true with Carnatic too) Funny, it's Indian music drawing me back towards Jazz. I'm gonna really have a look at those scales you put there Claudi.
Egyptian? Way cool. Thanks.

[Claudi]

Hi, Patrick.
You like the indian thing, eh? Did you check the wikipedia? I wrote Indian musical scale and there's a lot written and links in there.
I'm happy to have helped you giving you these scales.

[Patrick Brown]

You bet. Thanks Claudi.

[Latif]

And in classical N.I. raga we have flat, more flat, more more flat,(komal,ati komal, ati ati komal), especially for re and dha as in Rag Bhairav,and the possibilities are endless. Many times certain notes aren't used ascending even though the scale tones are correct, resulting in the wrong raga. Add in just intonation and it is very very difficult on fixed fret instruments as guitar. It used to be only an oral transmission but has changed in modern times.

Latif

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by Patrick Brown

I'm a big sarod fan,,in fact, I have an old Hemen(1967). I know about those differing scale tones. I have CD's of a number of great players. I think the one I like best is Buddhadev Das Gupta. He's not the greatest virtuoso, but there is a sweetness to his playing that I find just magical.
Yeah, you need to be judicious on your bends.(on guitar)

I'm moving to Lahore this winter, where I will attend NCA to study sarod and subcontinental music. I actually was fortunate enough to contact a hero of mine (hero of a lot of people) jazz guitar great Rez Abbasi, who is not only from the Subcontinent (as is my father) he has gone back, studied in India and fused some of the ideas into modern jazz/fusion. I asked him when I go, at what point should I start fusing those scales, raags, melodies, rhythms ect, because I plan on staying in Pakistan then going to India and Thailand ect, and living out my life's dream of studying ethnic music while internalizing it and blurring borders, not to garner fame or attention, but to please my self. I also asked him how he was able to fuse the ideas with American traditional jazz. He told me something prolific: DON'T compromise learning of the music by trying to experiment right away. Take all the time to study and learn sarod and the nuances, theory ect. Then let it come naturally.

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by Latif

And in classical N.I. raga we have flat, more flat, more more flat,(komal,ati komal, ati ati komal), especially for re and dha as in Rag Bhairav,and the possibilities are endless. Many times certain notes aren't used ascending even though the scale tones are correct, resulting in the wrong raga. Add in just intonation and it is very very difficult on fixed fret instruments as guitar. It used to be only an oral transmission but has changed in modern times.

Latif

Exactly. Have you heard of Prasanna?

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by Claudi

Hi, dudes!
Since you like exotic scales here I'm writing the other 13 ones coming from my scale book. Hope that some of 'em pleases you.

Would you happen to know the name of the West African pentatonic scale that goes
:1 b2 3 5 7

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

I'm moving to Lahore this winter, where I will attend NCA to study sarod and subcontinental music. I actually was fortunate enough to contact a hero of mine (hero of a lot of people) jazz guitar great Rez Abbasi, who is not only from the Subcontinent (as is my father) he has gone back, studied in India and fused some of the ideas into modern jazz/fusion. I asked him when I go, at what point should I start fusing those scales, raags, melodies, rhythms ect, because I plan on staying in Pakistan then going to India and Thailand ect, and living out my life's dream of studying ethnic music while internalizing it and blurring borders, not to garner fame or attention, but to please my self. I also asked him how he was able to fuse the ideas with American traditional jazz. He told me something prolific: DON'T compromise learning of the music by trying to experiment right away. Take all the time to study and learn sarod and the nuances, theory ect. Then let it come naturally.

That sounds wild!

[Patrick Brown]

That sounds great Jazzyteach65. Hope I can do something like that, someday.
india has always called tp me. A land of mystery. Ancient Egypt, too, 'cept India is living history. I have all the Lonely Planet books, and besides Ragapedia, I have the text book that the Ali Akbar Khan school uses.
I was reading Guitar Player just the other night, about Bela Fleck and his African adventures, and there was one scale they gave,,not quite what you write, but neat. I'd have to find it. I've got stacks of GP.

[Latif]

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

Exactly. Have you heard of Prasanna?

No, that's a new term to me. What is it?

Latif

[musicalbodger]

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

I'm moving to Lahore this winter, where I will attend NCA to study sarod and subcontinental music. I actually was fortunate enough to contact a hero of mine (hero of a lot of people) jazz guitar great Rez Abbasi, who is not only from the Subcontinent (as is my father) he has gone back, studied in India and fused some of the ideas into modern jazz/fusion. I asked him when I go, at what point should I start fusing those scales, raags, melodies, rhythms ect, because I plan on staying in Pakistan then going to India and Thailand ect, and living out my life's dream of studying ethnic music while internalizing it and blurring borders, not to garner fame or attention, but to please my self. I also asked him how he was able to fuse the ideas with American traditional jazz. He told me something prolific: DON'T compromise learning of the music by trying to experiment right away. Take all the time to study and learn sarod and the nuances, theory ect. Then let it come naturally.

Great stuff, Jazzyt. I wish you well in your travels. Learn all you can — then go fly.
Bodge

ps gonna be a change from Vegas

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

Would you happen to know the name of the West African pentatonic scale that goes
:1 b2 3 5 7

Hi, jazzyteach65!
Well, I'm searching this scale but I have no idea of which one that is. By now I've collected links by googleing that may be of your interest.
Misc Scales Guitar Tabs for - Exotic Scales Tabs, Chords, Lyrics
also
(Guitar Book) - Exotic Scales - New Horizons for Jazz Improvisation
also
Dave's Guitar Resource Page - Scales - Exotic Scales - Reference
and
GUITAR SCALES

For the last one click on top SCALES and there are a bunch. Hope you find the one you're after...and that some others satisfy you.

[Claudi]

By the way, jazzyteach, where did you get it from? Don't you have any reference of it?

[Patrick Brown]

I remember the scale now, a pentatonic,,,might be Mandeian(sp), but don't take that to the bank,,the notes, for sure, were:
g a b d f

[Latif]

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

Exactly. Have you heard of Prasanna?

Guess I should have asked who. Oops! Will check him out.

Latif

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

That sounds wild!

Why is it wild? I hope you don't mean dangerous, because all of my friends here in the states are telling me not to go back to Pakistan, even though I have family there and have lived there.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Wild as in very cool. I backpacked through India & Nepal in my pre-kids days and loved it. I didn't go to Pakistan -- my partner wasn't keen on how female travelers are treated there.

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by Claudi

By the way, jazzyteach, where did you get it from? Don't you have any reference of it?

I don't remember exactly where I got it from, I just remember reading up on the pentatonics derrived from Africa and came across the scale 1 b2, 3 5, 7 somewhere. It was years ago, so I forget.

I just find it so odd that so many cultures (and I've talked about this a lot on this site before) use call and response, theme and variation in there improv, thematic build-up, pentatonic, retrograde ect. I was watching a special on Leonard Bernstein on tv a few days back, where he said (this was 30 years ago) that the music of the future will be synthetic and ecclectic as well as go back to where it all began as being tonal. I found that thought interesting