Advantage of Carved Maple Top vs Laminate

[ben2e]

I realize there may be no "better". That said, I was comparing guitars from Peerless and one from Painter. The top of line Cremona from Peerless has a carved maple top. It's twice the price of the similar Jazz City which has a pressed maple top. It occurred to me I'm not sure how tops are usually constructed. I assume that there must be advantages to having a carved top if one is going to pay $1K more for it (granted I'm sure the Cremona has a few other advantages like ebony fingerboard).

I also was considering a painter P350 which has a custom laminated maple top.

I'm not sure exactly what pressed means for that matter. Could it be a steam pressed solid piece of wood ? It must be cheaper to construct but does it have big flaws ?

Thanks,

Ben

[mr. beaumont]

better acoustic tone. that's the biggie. if it's a deep jazzbox with a floating pickup, a carved solid top sounds great, especially unplugged.

pressed is a buzzword for laminate. they feed back less than a carved top. if most of your playing will be plugged in and well amplified, save yourself the hassle and $ and go laminate.

if you love playing acoustic and use amplification sparingly, if you can swing it, go carved.

[rio]

I would like to try a carved maple top, I really can't imagine it. Seems like it might be too bright and a bit brittle sounding compared to a laminate or carved spruce.

[gravyTrain]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

better acoustic tone. that's the biggie. if it's a deep jazzbox with a floating pickup, a carved solid top sounds great, especially unplugged.

pressed is a buzzword for laminate. they feed back less than a carved top. if most of your playing will be plugged in and well amplified, save yourself the hassle and $ and go laminate.

if you love playing acoustic and use amplification sparingly, if you can swing it, go carved.

This is great advice.

[NSJ]

Yes, better acoustic tone, but still. In a performance, when do you EVER play completely acoustically with an archtop? It's meant to be plugged into an amp. It's NOT a classical/nylon/dreadnaught guitar that's meant to be played acoustically. The acoustic quality of the instrument is best measured PLUGGED IN. Its a misnomer to say that you would play it acoustically--acoustically/unplugged, it doesn't measure up to a classical or dreadnaught guitar.

You would almost always partner the carved archtop with the floating pickup with an amp, and the sound is the most deep, rich, tone in which the acoustic qualities of the wood come through the AMP.

[mr. beaumont]

i dunno, NSJ. i've heard jim hall do a lot of stuff where he'll roll the volume off completely and comp.

now granted, the tone isn't a dreadnaught, but who likes that tone? BOOORRRRRIIIIIINNNNGGGGG!

i'm kidding a little bit. but what i was getting at in my post is if the guitar is heavily amplified, the difference becomes very small...

[gravyTrain]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

if the guitar is heavily amplified, the difference becomes very small...

This is something that I totally agree with. I can't tell you how many discussions I've had about this, but the bottom line is that with a Digitech GNX4 or similar (heck, often with just a good amp eq and effects) you can manipulate the sound of a guitar rather easily.

However, with that said: quality is built from the ground up: guitarist -> guitar -> amp etc.

[hot ford coupe]

I'm glad you sited Jim Hall and how he comps with the volume low. Originally the carved top was made to be played acoustically in a big band setting. If you like to mike an achtop, you definitely want the carved top and it's carved in tone (if the luthier really knows how to carve one up)

[ben2e]

However, with that said: quality is built from the ground up: guitarist -> guitar -> amp etc.[/quote]

I can't argue with that, although the first one is the hardest. I'm certain my guitar is not limiting me at this point. But they are still fun to play.

That said, I'm not confused about the Peerless specs. They say the Jazz City model is solid maple and the cremona is solid carved maple. I wonder now if pressed is somehow different than laminate ?

[ben2e]

Found this answer in an email from Peerless.
>Cremona is with carved top which was made from 30mm wood and Jazz City is pressed top by 5mm wood. Use ebony on Cremona and rosewood on Jazz City.

It does at least sound like the cheaper guitar has it's top pressed into shape. How pressing and carving make a difference, I don't know. It does seem obvious that carving would use a hell of a lot more wood.

I assume carved maple would still be quite feedback resistant if you were going to play some blues.

[NSJ]

Of course, Jim has always played a laminate with a built-in pickup, NOT a carved top. (ES-175, D'aQuisto, Sadowsky Jim Hall).

As the owner of a Sadowsky Hall and a Henriksen amp, I can tell you that it has an incredible acoustic sound, and you definitely want to play it through the amp, even at low volume. The great thing about it is, you can crank up the volume and it still sounds like an acoustically inclined guitar.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by ben2e

Found this answer in an email from Peerless.
>Cremona is with carved top which was made from 30mm wood and Jazz City is pressed top by 5mm wood. Use ebony on Cremona and rosewood on Jazz City.

It does at least sound like the cheaper guitar has it's top pressed into shape. How pressing and carving make a difference, I don't know. It does seem obvious that carving would use a hell of a lot more wood.

I assume carved maple would still be quite feedback resistant if you were going to play some blues.

ben, did you read the other posts...we're not lying to ya.

ebony/rosewood biz has got to fretboard, not the top.

pressed means laminate. carved is carved, a solid wood top.

a solid wood top will sound richer acoustically, especially if it is not cut into for a pickup. a solid wood top WILL feed back more amplified. solid wood vibrates more, which means more sound, but also, a greater chance for feedback.

there is nothing wrong with a laminate top for a jazz guitar. see the above jim hall related comments.

whatever you end up with, remember that these are jazz archtops. the sound will be focused, midrangey, and with a quick decay. it will not sound like a dred or a jumbo, not even close. your bluegrass picking neighbors would hate it, likely. i highly suggest checking out a jim hall record called "commitment" where jim plays his guitar amplified and unamplified on several tracks, so you can hear the difference. (it's a great jazz record too, btw)

as for witholding feedback for the blues, that depends on where you like your blues from...chicago blues--uh uh. i wouldn't even go there with a hollow body, really, i'd stick to a semi hollow or a solid body for the loud stuff...acoustic blues? sure, but again, it ain't gonna sound likea drednaught.

i hope this helps.

[derek]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

ben, did you read the other posts...we're not lying to ya.

ebony/rosewood biz has got to fretboard, not the top.

pressed means laminate. carved is carved, a solid wood top.

a solid wood top will sound richer acoustically, especially if it is not cut into for a pickup. a solid wood top WILL feed back more amplified. solid wood vibrates more, which means more sound, but also, a greater chance for feedback.

there is nothing wrong with a laminate top for a jazz guitar. see the above jim hall related comments.

whatever you end up with, remember that these are jazz archtops. the sound will be focused, midrangey, and with a quick decay. it will not sound like a dred or a jumbo, not even close. your bluegrass picking neighbors would hate it, likely. i highly suggest checking out a jim hall record called "commitment" where jim plays his guitar amplified and unamplified on several tracks, so you can hear the difference. (it's a great jazz record too, btw)

as for witholding feedback for the blues, that depends on where you like your blues from...chicago blues--uh uh. i wouldn't even go there with a hollow body, really, i'd stick to a semi hollow or a solid body for the loud stuff...acoustic blues? sure, but again, it ain't gonna sound likea drednaught.

i hope this helps.

Pressed does not always mean laminate. There is a process involving a molded press and steam that will press a solid top into shape without the use of acoustic plates. IIRC the Vestax DA New Yorkers all had pressed solid wood tops, not laminate.

[martinopass]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

better acoustic tone. that's the biggie. if it's a deep jazzbox with a floating pickup, a carved solid top sounds great, especially unplugged.

pressed is a buzzword for laminate. they feed back less than a carved top. if most of your playing will be plugged in and well amplified, save yourself the hassle and $ and go laminate.

if you love playing acoustic and use amplification sparingly, if you can swing it, go carved.

I agree. I find a laminated top easier to work with and dig the sound. The ES-175 (which is a laminate) is what I like.

In my experience, a solid top with a floater (like an Eastman 805ce I used to have) doesn't work well when amplified to the gigable volumes I do. Yet, acoustically it sounded great and loud enough where I could jam amp-less in a drum-less trio and be heard. Low volume amplified was fine too. It was just when I got to mid volume when I started to have feedback issues. And then forget higher volume situations. But everyone's volume level necessities could be different.

[Bill C]

to the best of my knowledge there are generally four types of top:

laminate - pressed
solid wood - pressed
solid wood - machine carved
solid wood - hand carved

In my experience, hand carved is acoustically livelier, more detailed and perhaps brighter than laminate, but laminate has a darker smokier sound that I personally prefer. Of course the neck and fingerboard woods affect this too, whether the pickup is built-in, type of bridge, etc etc ...

[Sphereacidburn]

Well, Laminates are easier to take care of except they do crack after awhile. A Carved top must be taken care of very closely you need a humidifier the top might collapses, A good Laminate can sound just as good as a Good Carved top while Laminates are thousands of dollars cheaper(Sometimes) But if you find a reasonably priced Carved top go for it (But the chance of that is very Slim) I like Laminates, and carved tops but if you like the sound of Late 60's 70's Joe Pass, and almost EVERY Herb Ellis Album, and even Pat Metheney go for the Laminate if you like that sound but if you like a sound like Wes Montgomery go for a Carved, I can't tell you what to buy I don't want to I am just saying that Laminates are usually easier to take care of than a Carved to you have to play them for the sound and see which one you like better thats the way to choose a guitar not by asking some people on the internet don't get me wrong I think this is wonderful. I know you wanted to know the Pro's and CON'S But that is mostly up to you All i can tell you is what I think and how to maintain both

[derek]

Originally Posted by Sphereacidburn

Well, Laminates are easier to take care of except they do crack after awhile. A Carved top must be taken care of very closely you need a humidifier the top might collapses, A good Laminate can sound just as good as a Good Carved top while Laminates are thousands of dollars cheaper(Sometimes) But if you find a reasonably priced Carved top go for it (But the chance of that is very Slim) I like Laminates, and carved tops but if you like the sound of Late 60's 70's Joe Pass, and almost EVERY Herb Ellis Album, and even Pat Metheney go for the Laminate if you like that sound but if you like a sound like Wes Montgomery go for a Carved, I can't tell you what to buy I don't want to I am just saying that Laminates are usually easier to take care of than a Carved to you have to play them for the sound and see which one you like better thats the way to choose a guitar not by asking some people on the internet don't get me wrong I think this is wonderful. I know you wanted to know the Pro's and CON'S But that is mostly up to you All i can tell you is what I think and how to maintain both

Even with laminates, you can have a top cave in. Lots of 175s have had this issue. All are made from wood, so they are suseptible to changes in temp and humidity. However, as you point out, lams are much more stable, and less finicky, plus they resist feedback better.

Which is why guys like Jim Hall, Pat Martino, Pat Metheny, John Pizzarelli, Jimmy Bruno, Corey Christiansen, Dave Stryker, John Scofield, et al, all tour with lams. There are still a few holdouts like Tuck, Jack Wilkins, Bucky Pizzarelli, Howard Alden, Anthony Wilson, etc, who are playing solid wood guitars.

[peterk1]

No one's mentioned this yet, so it might be worth the trouble.

If you go for the carved solid top, you're going to have to be hyper aware of humidity levels in your room, in your case, and wherever you put it.

It's got to be kept between 45-55% humidity or you're going to get cracks.
When the humidity goes up, your arched top will rise a bit. When the humidity goes down the top will sink. If it does either too much, the wood will start to crack. And even if you don't get a crack, both of those will affect tuning. When the top goes down all strings will go flat; when the top goes up, the strings go sharp.

Laminate is much more forgiving and travels much better.

I love my solid carved but it takes a bit of effort a lot more care than any other guitar I've ever owned. It's quite sensitive. If you live somewhere with warm summers and cold winters where you have to use heating, it's definitely an issue worth thinking about.

Silly me. Just read the thread again closely and someone did just mention this very issue.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by peterk1

It's got to be kept between 45-55% humidity or you're going to get cracks.

Man I'm so glad you brought this up. I've never heard of that and I would definitely have bought a carved top one day, while humidity varies between 35 and 75, sometimes even 80% in my appartment. I guess I'll stick with laminates as long as I live here. Holy cow, that's some news!

[Perhaps]

Originally Posted by peterk1

....
If you go for the carved solid top, you're going to have to be hyper aware of humidity levels in your room, in your case, and wherever you put it.

It's got to be kept between 45-55% humidity or you're going to get cracks.
...

The range of "safe humidity" is actually a bit wider than that.

Humidity chart from Kevin Ryan's web site;

Humidity Chart

Too low humidity is more a problem with cracking that too high.
Humidity at my house gets up to 70%....no cracking problems.

[Perhaps]

Originally Posted by Drifter

Man I'm so glad you brought this up. I've never heard of that and I would definitely have bought a carved top one day, while humidity varies between 35 and 75, sometimes even 80% in my appartment. I guess I'll stick with laminates as long as I live here. Holy cow, that's some news!

There are ways to counter humidity swings.
Several luthier I know recommend placing a Zorb-It pack in the guitar case, and keeping your guitars in their cases when not being played.

Zorb-It - Zorb-It

Seems to do the trick in this neck of the woods.

[Archie]

In winter, get a cheap room humidifier, and a hygrometer, and keep it in the room where you keep your guitars.

[peterk1]

Originally Posted by Perhaps

The range of "safe humidity" is actually a bit wider than that. Humidity chart from Kevin Ryan's web site;

Humidity Chart

Too low humidity is more a problem with cracking that too high.
Humidity at my house gets up to 70%....no cracking problems.

It's good to hear about that it's more tolerant than what I quoted above. My numbers are what are usually given on the info sheets that some guitar makers give out with the instruments.

Mind you...Kevin Ryan's site looks like it's all flat-tops. I could be wrong here, but I think arch-tops are a little more vulnerable because the top is normally curved, so you want to be more a little cautious than that chart.

I live up in Canada, and once the heating starts up for the winter, humidity in my house goes down to about 20% ...definitely dangerous. And the scary thing is that I didn't do anything at all about it or think there was any problem to worry about for the first winter. It was just an off the cuff question I asked the luthier by e-mail one day that led to me being informed.

Humidifying the entire apartment or house when it gets that low is kind of difficult, so I keep three small sponges (Dampits) inside my case/guitar and always store the guitar in the case when It's not being played. And a hygrometer inside the case to constantly monitor the level.

[derek]

Originally Posted by Archie

In winter, get a cheap room humidifier, and a hygrometer, and keep it in the room where you keep your guitars.

Yeah, this is what I do in the winter. It is not just about the wood though. You have other materials on the guitar that are NOT affected by humidity, like the metal frets, plastic binding, etc. While the wood will move from humidity changes, these other materials will not.

Due to this, we see frets and binding pop on guitars, and is why you get finish cracks over time. Flat tops are just as susceptible to humidity changes as archtops. If you check out classical sites, those guys are just as finicky about their guitars as we are.

[82Benedetto]

To the person who said if you're going to play plugged in, get a laminate and save $, I would disagree on one point.

I've often found a lot of the "cheaper" laminates lack the construction quality of some solid carved archtops. For example, the Hohners and D'angelico's I've played really felt like an imported, cheap instrument. I would pay a few hundred more for a used Eastman just because it FELT so much better...but I guess that's all subjective.

[goshawk]

I've used both the Humidipak and the Zorb-it with two of my guitars, each of which has a solid spruce top. I'm in the Northeast US, so we have a very wide range of relative humidty: perhaps as low as 20% during the winter, 80% or even higher during the summer.

I think the Zorb-It is good for the price, but may not do the job at the extremes of humidity -- this winter at one point I took it out of the guitar case and put a humidifier in there. I was about to put it back in before the humidity starts going up. This is actually my second Zord-It - the package tore with the first one, which was a pain.

The Humidipak seems to do slightly better, particularly when dealing with low humidity, but of course you have to replace the paks from time to time. Between the original purchase price and the cost of the refills, it's a far more expensive alternative to the Zorb-It.

What I've wanted to try is the system from Humicase -- the standalone version of what they put in their cases -- but it's something like twice the price of the Humidipak.

[goshawk]

Originally Posted by ingeneri

Thanks, how do you insert the humidipak since you don't have an oval hole in the center? Also, does anyone know if there is any danger to the finish from the humidipak?

The depends. When I first got it and was using it with my traditional archtop, I either folded it and put it into one of the f-holes (enough stuck out that I could remove it without trouble) or I put one end in the f-hole and slid the other end under the strings.

I now use it mostly with my ER-1, which has no f-holes, so I simply slide it under the strings.

I haven't noticed any issue with the finish. The paks are sealed and seem to be fairly tough, and they go into a soft fabric pouch.

[Bill C]

Originally Posted by ingeneri

Has anyone used the Planet Waves humidipak with an archtop?

The Zorbit sounds great, anyone else using them? Which luthiers are recommending them?

I used a zorbit in the case when I owned a carved top. Hard to say what effect it had but the guitar seemed to stay in good health.

[Drifter]

I wonder if different woods like spruce, maple and mahogany crack as easily or is one of them more likely to crack under bad humidity conditions than another?

[cosmic gumbo]

As far as carved MAPLE, it is really not a tonewood used in making stringed instrument tops. Maple would be strong and pretty, but there is nothing warm about the sound. Think drum shells. The best sounding acoustic archtop would have a very lightweight carved spruce top, but the minute you go electric, it won't sound superior to a good laminate top. Check out Carvin's carved maple archtops. Too bad they don't have a carved back.