Advantage of Carved Maple Top vs Laminate

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by ingeneri

Has anyone used the Planet Waves humidipak with an archtop?

The Zorbit sounds great, anyone else using them? Which luthiers are recommending them?

I use the planet waves system on two of my boxes. They have oval holes so I can get one of the packs on the inside. According to my Planet Waves hygrometer it's 43-46% in the case.

I also have some of those Oasis humidifiers

Oasis® Humidifier for Acoustic Steel & Nylon String Guitars and other Wood Instruments

But I haven't bought any distilled water to use them yet so I can't comment. I figured you could insert one in an F hole like you do with the Dampits.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

As far as carved MAPLE, it is really not a tonewood used in making stringed instrument tops. Maple would be strong and pretty, but there is nothing warm about the sound. Think drum shells. The best sounding acoustic archtop would have a very lightweight carved spruce top, but the minute you go electric, it won't sound superior to a good laminate top. Check out Carvin's carved maple archtops. Too bad they don't have a carved back.

What about the Heritage H575 - carved maple top and back, solid maple rim? It seems that it is pretty warm sounding. Would it be more robust and less likely to crack than let's say a Gibson L-4 CES mahogany (spruce top, mahogany back and rim)?

[derek]

Originally Posted by Drifter

What about the Heritage H575 - carved maple top and back, solid maple rim? It seems that it is pretty warm sounding. Would it be more robust and less likely to crack than let's say a Gibson L-4 CES mahogany (spruce top, mahogany back and rim)?

Experience tells me as an amature woodworker that harder woods crack easier than softer woods. However, reduce the humidity enough, and they all will crack.

The 575 is a hollowbody electric guitar. It doesn't sound as acoustically pleasing to me as an L-4. However the Sadowsky Jim Hall is built more like the 575, and gets a surprisingly good acoustic tone for an all laminate.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by derek

However the Sadowsky Jim Hall is built more like the 575, and gets a surprisingly good acoustic tone for an all laminate.

That implies to me that there are significant craftmanship and design factors involved. It's not a "gimme" that a carved spruce top will always sound one way whilst a laminated top with always sound another way. The Sadowsky web page mentions four years of prototypes and "After several prototypes, Roger refined the Jim Hall Guitar by reducing the thickness of the top and back to provide a more acoustic response."

[derek]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

That implies to me that there are significant craftmanship and design factors involved. It's not a "gimme" that a carved spruce top will always sound one way whilst a laminated top with always sound another way. The Sadowsky web page mentions four years of prototypes and "After several prototypes, Roger refined the Jim Hall Guitar by reducing the thickness of the top and back to provide a more acoustic response."

Absolutely. It is clear that Roger was very intentionally going for a nice acoustic sound from his JH model, something that probably wasn't a high priority at the beginning for laminate models like the 175, which were meant to be electric guitars. So get the feedback resistance and stability lamination provides, and get a decent acoustic sound in a guitar that is just wonderfully made. Win win.

Man, I am getting my GAS up.

[goshawk]

Originally Posted by derek

Absolutely. It is clear that Roger was very intentionally going for a nice acoustic sound from his JH model, something that probably wasn't a high priority at the beginning for laminate models like the 175, which were meant to be electric guitars. So get the feedback resistance and stability lamination provides, and get a decent acoustic sound in a guitar that is just wonderfully made. Win win.

Man, I am getting my GAS up.

William Moll, who makes John Pizarelli's guitars, says something similar -- that he worked to come up with an approach that combined the benefits of using laminates with a good acoustic tone. His guitars, however, seem to have a more "traditional" design, including a 17" lower bout and floating pickup.

[derek]

Originally Posted by goshawk

William Moll, who makes John Pizarelli's guitars, says something similar -- that he worked to come up with an approach that combined the benefits of using laminates with a good acoustic tone. His guitars, however, seem to have a more "traditional" design, including a 17" lower bout and floating pickup.

Yeah but, have you spent much time listening to Piz? He sounds like he could be playing his old man's Benedetto. The woody tones he gets from his sig model Moll belie its ply construction.

[goshawk]

Originally Posted by derek

Yeah but, have you spent much time listening to Piz? He sounds like he could be playing his old man's Benedetto. The woody tones he gets from his sig model Moll belie its ply construction.

Well, yeah, that's what I was trying to say. If you didn't know it was a "plywood" guitar, you'd never think it was from the sound. Another example of how current luthiers are getting much better acoustic tone from laminates by rethinking the design.

[82Benedetto]

Originally Posted by goshawk

Well, yeah, that's what I was trying to say. If you didn't know it was a "plywood" guitar, you'd never think it was from the sound. Another example of how current luthiers are getting much better acoustic tone from laminates by rethinking the design.

But you have to consider the difference between high end laminates and low end laminates. I've never really heard a great, cheap laminate. And, honestly, I prefer the tone of cheaper, solid top guitars than expensive laminates (ie, Eastman vs. Sadowsky. Hell, give me the Eastman.) The Sadowskys sound phenomenal for laminates, but why pay more when I can get a better tone from the Eastman acoustically (my opinion) and an equal one amplified?

[Bill C]

Originally Posted by 82Benedetto

But you have to consider the difference between high end laminates and low end laminates. I've never really heard a great, cheap laminate. And, honestly, I prefer the tone of cheaper, solid top guitars than expensive laminates (ie, Eastman vs. Sadowsky. Hell, give me the Eastman.) The Sadowskys sound phenomenal for laminates, but why pay more when I can get a better tone from the Eastman acoustically (my opinion) and an equal one amplified?

... imo, at the end of the day this just comes down to personal preference. I prefer the acoustic and electric sound of the Sadowsky JH over a more expensive carved top guitar I used to own, but I can see how others would have preferred the carved top. Laminates potentially have the advantage in structural stability and feedback resistance but I'd be surprised if this were universally true!

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

That implies to me that there are significant craftmanship and design factors involved. It's not a "gimme" that a carved spruce top will always sound one way whilst a laminated top with always sound another way. The Sadowsky web page mentions four years of prototypes and "After several prototypes, Roger refined the Jim Hall Guitar by reducing the thickness of the top and back to provide a more acoustic response."

That's interesting because that's what the Smallman lattice braced classicals are supposed to do (thin the top for more acoustic volume).

[scharpachguitars]

Normally a pressed top means that a piece of wood is forced into a certain shape. Laminated means one uses several thin layers that are glued together in a mould. So there is a difference between both.
I would say that a pressed top of massive wood comes closer to a carved top.
A carved top is carved from 2 solid matched pieces of wood.

Of course a carved top guitar will be more expensive up to an unlimted price range. But a carved top is not nessecary better for everyone. And there are many bad carved top archtops on the market that sound too nasal. This problem you mostly do not find with laminated tops. This kind of guitar is mostly more a semi acoustic electric guitar. Therefore the sound is merely produced by the woods and not by the "air" inside the instrument. This is coupled with the movement of the wood.

It takes long experience to build a high end carved archtop. And in that case prices are comparable with prices for chello and other simular constructed instruments.

Scharpachguitars, www.scharpach.com

Originally Posted by ben2e

I realize there may be no "better". That said, I was comparing guitars from Peerless and one from Painter. The top of line Cremona from Peerless has a carved maple top. It's twice the price of the similar Jazz City which has a pressed maple top. It occurred to me I'm not sure how tops are usually constructed. I assume that there must be advantages to having a carved top if one is going to pay $1K more for it (granted I'm sure the Cremona has a few other advantages like ebony fingerboard).

I also was considering a painter P350 which has a custom laminated maple top.

I'm not sure exactly what pressed means for that matter. Could it be a steam pressed solid piece of wood ? It must be cheaper to construct but does it have big flaws ?

Thanks,

Ben

[cosmic gumbo]

Well, one thing's for sure, if you ever whack that solid top, it sure does split a lot easier than laminate. That plywood is some rugged stuff.

[scharpachguitars]

Well that is one way of looking at it!
But if you play a lot in clubs it may be also an argument

Scharpachguitars

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

If you need to defend yourself, use a Tele!

[82Benedetto]

Watch out for the marketing behind those pressed tops, though. They often don't specify, and hearing "solid spruce top" causes one to associate the price with a solid top and its just not the same.

[bass2man]

I am alos loking at a peerless...either a Imperial or Cremona...17" with carved maple top..anyone played either of these? I have a 1977 ES-175 w/lam than sounds great...pretty woody, but nice. Also have a 1991 Gretsch G400 Syncromatic ( see avatar). Solid Spruce top with a Humbucker set PU..more acoustic sound when plugged in and does not really project acoustically without an amp, probably due to the set PU.
I am looking for a more modern Wes sound...I use D'Addario Chrom Flats 12's...the 175 sounds exectly like Herb Ellis/Joe Pass.

I am leaning to teh Cremona but any thoughts would be appreciated.

BTW, I live in Florida so humidity is always 80% or more..never had a problem with cracks or anything on guitars..just need to have the boxes settle in for 10 min. out of the case before final tuning when taking from car to AC..

[riovine]

Originally Posted by scharpachguitars

Normally a pressed top means that a piece of wood is forced into a certain shape. Laminated means one uses several thin layers that are glued together in a mould. So there is a difference between both.
I would say that a pressed top of massive wood comes closer to a carved top.
A carved top is carved from 2 solid matched pieces of wood.

Of course a carved top guitar will be more expensive up to an unlimted price range. But a carved top is not nessecary better for everyone. And there are many bad carved top archtops on the market that sound too nasal. This problem you mostly do not find with laminated tops. This kind of guitar is mostly more a semi acoustic electric guitar. Therefore the sound is merely produced by the woods and not by the "air" inside the instrument. This is coupled with the movement of the wood.

It takes long experience to build a high end carved archtop. And in that case prices are comparable with prices for chello and other simular constructed instruments.

Scharpachguitars, www.scharpach.com

Wow, your archtops are stunning, interesting that all your archtops are slotheads, don't know if I've ever seen that on a archie, but it's different & it works, it looks very cool. I love the finishes & binding & the exaggerated "S" type soundholes.


Do you know of anyone in the states that has one.

[TommyD]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Well, one thing's for sure, if you ever whack that solid top, it sure does split a lot easier than laminate. That plywood is some rugged stuff.

Back in the 60's, I bought a used Guild arch top laminated guitar. I don't remember the model but it was one of the better models, and played and sounded great. A pal of mine, Bill Comstock (later of Four Freshmen fame) was working with a quartet that had as leader, a girl bass player. Long story short, someone left the station wagon unlocked while they ran in for a pack of cigarettes. all the instruments were in it; Klink's vibes, Louise's bass, Bill's ES 175, and Kenny's trumpet. Guess what happened? You familiar with Murphy's Law? In two minutes, every instrument - gone with the wind.
Well, Bill asked if he could borrow my Guild until he could replace his guitar. Fine, I had another guitar, not as good but playable.
About a month later, Louise the bass player, got drunk on the job and in stepping down off the stand at the end of a set (Remember those "musical bars" where the bar surrounded the stand?), she knocked MY Guild off its stand and down onto the floor behind the bar, about 30 inches lower than the stand, then lost her balance, such as it was, with her being drunk and all, and STEPPED DOWN THROUGH MY GUILD GUITAR with a spike-heeled shoe. Needless to say, her foot went right through the guitar, the strings, the pickups, and the pick guard. So as tough as laminated archtop guitars are, there are some things they can't weather.
P.S. In exchange, I got a Gibson ES 125 from Bill which I still have and play.
Tommy/

[randyc]

I posted this earlier but it went "whoosh" into Neverland. Tommy, you have some great anecdotes, NYC guys always do. Thanks and keep 'em coming.